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Monday message board

December 12th, 2005

It’s time, once again for the Monday Message Board. As usual, civilised discussion and no coarse language, please.

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  1. what the
    December 13th, 2005 at 14:21 | #1

    http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,17512923-5001035,00.html

    December 10, 2005
    A young woman this week told a TV camera crew of the intimidation she has experienced on Cronulla beach.

    “They’ll stand over you while you’re sunbaking, block your sun so they get your attention, then say, ‘She’s not worth doing 55 years for’,” she told them.

    For those unsure of what these lowlifes are referring to, it’s the length of the prison sentence which was given to Sydney’s infamous gang rapist, Bilal Skaf.

    http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,17513853%255E1702,00.html

  2. Pinguthepenguin
    December 13th, 2005 at 14:28 | #2

    http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581

    An interesting read from a police perspective on the issue of middle-eastern gangs in Sydney. I amnot sure if these sort of organised crime gangs are drectly related to what is happenning in Cronulla, but the behaviour certainly seems to fit.

  3. Pinguthepenguin
    December 13th, 2005 at 14:30 | #3

    Oh crap…what the got in just before me with the same article. I didn’t notice.

    My humble applogies for repeating the same information.

    *squak*

  4. what the
    December 13th, 2005 at 15:12 | #4

    not at all pingu, an interesting article is worth repeating. May I also compliment you on your cool name at the same time.

  5. Terje Petersen
    December 13th, 2005 at 15:52 | #5

    IAN SAID:-

    Given the rather wreched record of “zero tolereanceâ€? policies I’m not sure what the alternative is – there has to be some way to avoid conflict with local communities which leads to escalation without creating the preconditions for more serious violence later.

    I think the answer has to be a marriage between “zero tolerance” and “community based policing”. Whilst at first glance these might seem like non-complementary styles they are in fact very compatible and very necessary to successful policing.

    > Zero tolerance means every transgression consistently has a consequence. It does not mean bashing up the bad guys.

    > Community based means that every consequence is delivered with regard to the fact that the individual is a member of the community and needs to be treated with respect. It does not mean let the bad guys get away with things.

    So your a police women and you pick some guy up for drink driving. Zero Tolerance might mean you confiscate their car and cancel their licence. Community based might mean you don’t leave them standing on the side of the road, you listen to their point of view, and after taking their car you drive them home and make sure they get inside their house without falling on their face. You remember that they may have a wife and kids who need to know that their husband/father is okay.

    Some might call it “tough love” policing.

    I am not suggesting that it will cure every social ill, or stop every crime. However I don’t really see any meaningful alternative.

    How should a responsible adult respond if their child hits another kid at school. Should they stop loving their child?

  6. Ian Gould
    December 13th, 2005 at 17:05 | #6

    Terje, I’m no expert in the area but what you suggest makes sense to me.

  7. Steve Munn
    December 13th, 2005 at 17:19 | #7

    It was interesting to see a Lebanese social worker on Seven News, who was among the Muslim thugs who loitered around the Lakemba mosque last night, say what too many “latte liberals” refuse to believe. He unequivocally said that some young Muslims hate Westerners and hate the West.

    Australian citizenship is a privilege not a right. Those who display such hostility should be stripped of their citizenship if they were born overseas.

  8. lurch
    December 13th, 2005 at 18:50 | #8

    Steve Munn – what do you do with those displaying hostility if they are born in Australia?

  9. Andrew Reynolds
    December 13th, 2005 at 18:57 | #9

    Terje,
    I did a bit of rough work on the Bancor page – but some more could be done. You need to do some work on your user page, though. No details apart from one link, and that does not work.

  10. Steve Munn
    December 13th, 2005 at 19:09 | #10

    Lurch says: “Steve Munn – what do you do with those displaying hostility if they are born in Australia?”

    Make them wear pink overalls and clean the Cronulla Beach toilets with a toothbrush.

  11. Will De Vere
    December 13th, 2005 at 20:35 | #11

    I believe that citizenship is so important that it is a right. It is not a ‘privilege’ to be doled out by whomever decides today’s privileges. Privilege is a revolting term that suggests a stream of favours from above, the essence of corruption: little bon-bons from the cousin.

    The global problem of rights, the importance of citizenship and residency, the endless flow of tourists and the question of dual loyalty – you’re also a Tralfamadorian citizen? – suggest to me that we should should have a two-tier system of Australian citizenship to replace the current system: probationary citizenship (PC) based on the period of residency. Anyone who signs on to citizenship might undergoe a lenghty trial period. If there’s violence, you’re out.

  12. SJ
    December 13th, 2005 at 20:53 | #12

    Anyone who signs on to citizenship might undergoe a lenghty trial period. If there’s violence, you’re out.

    Waste of time, De Vere. The current problems involve the second generation. They were born here and no-one else will want them or take them. There’s no “send them back to where they came from” option, they came from here.

    Jail is where they should be, and where some of them already are. It’s not really that difficult. Find them, arrest them, convict them. John Howard’s ridiculous position be damned.

  13. December 13th, 2005 at 21:38 | #13

    Hello from Prince,

    I am now using my wings with the intention to fly soon. My human mother is still feeding me yummy things and I am growing faster now, my wing measurement is 10.5cm (from elbow to first joint).

    By February I will be ready for release and I will be joining the other flying foxes as they forage in the gum blossoms and mango trees at night. You may even hear me screech near your house

  14. Will De Vere
    December 13th, 2005 at 21:59 | #14

    SJ- Point taken. I wasn’t suggesting that anyone get sent back anywhere, only proposing a future framework for citizenship. My notion was to create a system in which the legal satus of everyone, including you or me, was better defined.

    I’m worried that you seem so certain about who ‘they’ are. By describing ‘them’ all as second generation you pretend to know who’s who. Are you Arabic, Lebanese, Slovenian?

    Here’s a modest proposal to sort the sheep from the goats. Order DMIA inspectors to sweep everyone in Australia. Watch how many dodgy Brit illegals fall out of the trees. Poms are notoriously violent.

  15. SJ
    December 13th, 2005 at 22:11 | #15

    I’m worried that you seem so certain about who ‘they’ are. By describing ‘them’ all as second generation you pretend to know who’s who. Are you Arabic, Lebanese, Slovenian?

    Here’s a modest proposal to sort the sheep from the goats. Order DMIA inspectors to sweep everyone in Australia. Watch how many dodgy Brit illegals fall out of the trees. Poms are notoriously violent.

    Um, wouldn’t it make more sense to just use the existing public surveillance footage, and arrest the people who’ve been filmed committing criminal acts?

  16. Terje Petersen
    December 13th, 2005 at 22:12 | #16

    I did a bit of rough work on the Bancor page – but some more could be done. You need to do some work on your user page, though. No details apart from one link, and that does not work.

    Thanks Andrew.

  17. Steve Munn
    December 13th, 2005 at 22:51 | #17

    Will De Vere- Your proposal for probationary citizenship sounds sensible. I guess it would be unfair to repatriate someone who has lived here for lets say 20 years or more.

    I disagree with you to some extent though on the issue of rights. I believe rights must be balanced by responsibilities. No society can function successfully if we all demand rights but are unwilling to expect concomitant responsibilities.

    SJ- some of these Arab thugs will be Australian born but surely not all.

    I think it would be wise government policy to cease accepting immigrants from those ethnicities that are currently not integrating successfully. Immigration could resume once it is apparent that successful integration is occurring. Violent crime figures could be used as the benchmark for successful integration.

    Some of the above may sound harsh to the “latte liberals” on this forum. However, I spoken about it at length with my OS born partner and various OS born friends and they mostly feel the same way.

  18. Ian Gould
    December 13th, 2005 at 23:20 | #18

    “Lurch says: “Steve Munn – what do you do with those displaying hostility if they are born in Australia?â€?

    Make them wear pink overalls and clean the Cronulla Beach toilets with a toothbrush. ”

    Does that apply to this authors of this charming missive: “”F***ing Aussie in the Shire get down the north Cronulla to help support Leb and wog bashing-day. Bring your mates down and let’s show them that this is our beach and they’re never welcome back. F***ing Lebs/wogs. Let’s kill the c**ts. Tell everybody, spread the word. Fire up Aussies. Sunday midday, don’t forget. Forward this to all you know and help us…”?

  19. Ian Gould
    December 13th, 2005 at 23:46 | #19

    >Violent crime figures could be used as the benchmark for successful integration.

    Media beat-ups to the contrary I’ve always understood that the only migrant groups with a statistically signifcant higher crime rate than the native-born are the English and the New Zealanders (largely because both groups are disproportionately much more likely to be young and male than either other migrants or the native-born.)

  20. Steve Munn
    December 14th, 2005 at 00:03 | #20

    Ian Gould- Yes it does. Justice must be blind. Moreover, I would like to see fascist shit-stirrers like Jim Salaem locked up for long time. I’m not racist Ian, but I am sick of so many of my fellow Lefties focussing solely on Anglo racism. I personally find that offensive.

    We have a genuine problem in this country with a significant number of Islamic people who hate Westerners and are prepared to maim, rape and kill. We need to face up to that and stop making glib excuses on their behalf.

    By the way, does anyone know anything about the http://www.jihadwatch.org/ website? Is it a reliable source of information? I ask because the site contains quotes from the supposedly moderate Grand Mufti Al-Hilali in which he says that Australia was originally an Islamic country!

    I can only repeat my earlier comment, the Islamic community is poorly served by its leadership.

  21. morganzola
    December 14th, 2005 at 00:07 | #21

    Yes, let’s deport all the non-citizen Poms and Kiwis. That’ll solve all our problems.

    Everybody else seems to assimilate pretty well after a generation or two – I mean, just give the “Lebs” 20 years or so and they’ll be joining the mob that wants to beat the crap out of the latest crop of invaders.

    But the Poms will still be whingeing and the Kiwis will still be selling drugs in the Eastern Suburbs.

    The more things change the more they stay the same, I reckon.

  22. Ian Gould
    December 14th, 2005 at 00:19 | #22

    “By the way, does anyone know anything about the http://www.jihadwatch.org/ website? Is it a reliable source of information?”

    http://jihadwatch.org/spencer/

    “ROBERT SPENCER, the director of Jihad Watch, is a writer and researcher who has written five books, seven monographs, and numerous articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism. His latest book is the New York Times bestseller The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) (Regnery).”

    Regnery Press is an extreme right-wing American publishing house with links to white supremacist groups. It is perhaps best-known for publishing a book by the leader of “Swift Boat Veterans for The Truth”.

    It’s past midngiht so I’m not going to look furhter at the site at this time but the Regnery connection is sufficient to make deeply skeptical.

  23. Ian Gould
    December 14th, 2005 at 00:26 | #23

    From Jihadwatch:

    “Australia: shots fired at church

    This could have something to do with those “race riots.” “Church shots fired,” from SkyNews, with thanks to Terminator:

    Police are investigating the firing of shots overnight at a Catholic school and church in Sydney’s west.

    People attending a Christmas carols event at St Joseph the Worker Primary School in South Auburn heard what sounded like gunshots.

    Two of the school’s staff members later discovered bullet holes in their cars and more than 20 shells were recovered from the scene.

    The Catholic Church says it is especially concerned at the targetting of Christmas celebrations at a school attended by children as young as five.

    The carols service at Holy Spirit Primary School in Lakemba, which was scheduled for tonight, has now been cancelled. ”

    Lakemba is, as most Aussies know, a suburb with a very large Lebanese population. Considering that 40%+ of Lebanese Australians are Catholics, what are the chances that the perpetrators of this attack were non-lebanese Australians targeting the school because its students were alrgely of Lebanese descent?

  24. Ian Gould
    December 14th, 2005 at 00:32 | #24

    While it may be unfair to judge a site by it’s commentators, I found this gem on Jihadwatch:

    “We need to call in the army as these animals are well armed.

    Every mosque must be bulldozed and all Muslims deported to wherever will take them.

    Islam must be outlawed.
    It is beyond words how execrable is the cult of Islam.”

  25. Crispin Bennett
    December 14th, 2005 at 09:22 | #25

    Steve Munn: I’m a bit worried about your frequent references to ‘latte liberals’. Progressives & social liberals drink black coffee. Lattes are for pussies.

  26. Katz
    December 14th, 2005 at 12:08 | #26

    This little snippet from the BradBlog, taken from a Right Wing website, provides an interestin insight into how Murdoch shapes his media:

    http://www.bradblog.com/default.htm

    ‘Saudi Prince al-Waleed bin Talal boasted in Dubai earlier this week about his ability to change the news content that viewers around the world see on television.

    ‘In early September 2005, Bin Talal bought 5.46% of voting shares in News Corp. This made the Fifth richest man on the Forbes World’s Richest People, the fourth largest voting shareholder in News Corp., the parent of Fox News. News Corp. is the world’s leading newspaper publisher in English.

    ‘Covering the riots in Paris last November, Fox ran a banner saying: “Muslim riots.” Bin Talal was not happy. “I picked up the phone and called Murdoch… (and told him) these are not Muslim riots, these are riots out of poverty,” he said. “Within 30 minutes, the title was changed from Muslim riots to civil riots.”‘

    It is notorious that Murdoch is a serial meddler, and FOX has been a blatant pedlar of lies, especially since 9/11.

    But it’s interesting to witness:

    1. How quickly money talks.
    2. How the Right sound just like those hated Left-Liberal Elites when their heads are getting kicked.

    I find this story grimly satisfying.

  27. Steve Munn
    December 14th, 2005 at 14:51 | #27

    Ian Gould says: “While it may be unfair to judge a site by it’s commentators, I found this gem on Jihadwatch … ”

    Yes Ian. What you have done is very unfair. I mean would it be fair to trash Professor Quiggin’s fine website by quoting some “Steve At The Pub” rant? You have let yourself down this time Mr Gould.

  28. Andrew Reynolds
    December 14th, 2005 at 18:19 | #28

    The Iranian President has just joined the list of public holocaust deniers. Anyone care to guess what he would do with nuclear weapons?
    Maybe Bush missed the target by one country.

  29. Steve Munn
    December 14th, 2005 at 19:31 | #29

    Good point Andrew Reynolds. I would not blame Israel for launching a strike on Iran. I shudder to think what would happen if Iran had nuclear weapons.

  30. SJ
    December 14th, 2005 at 19:44 | #30

    Andrew Reynolds Says: “Anyone care to guess what he would do with nuclear weapons?”

    Probably exactly the same thing everyone else does with them. I.e., nothing.

    Where’s Osama these days? Pakistan. How many right wing wankers are complaining about this, and demanding strikes against or invasion of Pakistan? Pretty close to none. Figure there’s any connection with Pakistan’s possession of nuclear weapons?

  31. December 14th, 2005 at 20:26 | #31

    Steve Munn: Since when has common sense been termed “ranting”?

  32. Terje Petersen
    December 15th, 2005 at 05:45 | #32

    QUOTE: Maybe Bush missed the target by one country.

    RESPONSE: Iran was/is definitely a bigger US threat than Iraq.

  33. Ian Gould
    December 15th, 2005 at 08:16 | #33

    Every other Iranian President sicne the revolution has been either a powerless figure heard or a stooge for the Supreme Leader.

    Ahmedinajad is unlikely to prove any different.

    Terje, Iran is also a much, much more difficult military target than Iraq.

    A ground invasion of Iran would be a much more difficult task than the invasion of Iraq.

  34. what the
    December 15th, 2005 at 09:28 | #34

    Katz when you wrote 1-2 you forgot to add

    It is notorious that Murdoch is a serial meddler, and FOX has been a blatant pedlar of lies, especially since 9/11.

    But it’s interesting to witness:

    1. How quickly money talks.
    2. How the Right sound just like those hated Left-Liberal Elites when their heads are getting kicked.

    AND

    3. The shadowy propoganda tactics and cronyism of a powerful Saudi unwilling to allow a free press to operate without adding his manipulative 5c.

  35. Katz
    December 15th, 2005 at 09:56 | #35

    “3. The shadowy propoganda tactics and cronyism of a powerful Saudi unwilling to allow a free press to operate without adding his manipulative 5c.’

    What The,

    The grim satisfaction I took in this story was the fact that money, whether Saudi-dynastic, or international-corporate-capitalist, talks.

    1. Neither the Saudi Prince nor Murdoch had any regard for the truth.

    2. It was Murdoch, not the Saudi Prince, who called FOX News. Murdoch could have refused, but didn’t. Money talks.

    3. After the call was made, the editor at FOX News could have refused to change the story. S/he could have resigned in protest at propagandistic manipulation, but didn’t. S/he could have blown a whistle that would have been heard b the entire media world, but s/he didn’t. Money talks.

    So the next time you watch FOX News remind yourself about how little respect the owners and executives of FOX News have for the truth. Money talks.

  36. Terje Petersen
    December 15th, 2005 at 10:19 | #36

    QUOTE: A ground invasion of Iran would be a much more difficult task than the invasion of Iraq.

    RESPONSE: Please explain?

  37. Ros
    December 15th, 2005 at 10:52 | #37

    SJ’s view that Ahmadinezhad is probably likely to do nothing with nuclear weapons is not one held by Mullah Mohammad Ali Abtahi, ex Vice President Iran.
    His comments following the election of Ahmadinezhad

    “I did everything; I fought desperately. It was all for nothing. We all failed. Our country will be lost.”
    There is reason for his despair, because with the election of Ahmadinezhad the radical Islamist hardliners have now recaptured all the control centers of power in Iran. “Ahmadinezhad,” Abtahi writes, “is a visionary. He dreams of a second, revolution in Iran, the Islamist one. He is the representative of the rightist extremists that I warned you about. I was always against Ahmadinezhad,” he writes further. “We have always fought against him and against those who back him. Now, however, we have experienced a crushing defeat. What lies ahead for us and for you is the long night of darkness that I spoke about at the time.” Behind Abtahi’s words is the fear that now, since all power centers are united in the hands of radical Islamist power groups around supreme spiritual leader Ayatollah Ali Khamene’i, “these people will play the nuclear card just the same as the card of global terror.”

  38. Ros
    December 15th, 2005 at 10:54 | #38

    Apologies, source http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007690.php providing English translation of article in Cicero

  39. Ian Gould
    December 21st, 2005 at 16:39 | #39

    Terje:

    QUOTE: A ground invasion of Iran would be a much more difficult task than the invasion of Iraq.

    RESPONSE: Please explain?

    1. Iran’s military hasn’t been crippled by defeat in an earlier war and a decade of sanctions.

    2. Iran’s population is roughly 2.5 times that of Iraq.

    3. 90% of the population are Shia muslims. There’s been surprisingly little friction between the two main ethnic groups (the Persians and the Azeris). The only group likely to support an invasion are the Kurds who make up less than 10% of the population. There won’t be any Iranian equivalent of the Iraqi Kurds or Afghanistan’s Northern Alliance. Mujahadeen-i-Khalq, the only significant armed resistance group from the Persian majority has onyl a few thousand supporters.

    4. The transportation system is fairly underdeveloped and several of the major population centres (such as Tehran, Isfahn and Mashhad) would need to be supplied by road over a very long distance. It’d be a much harder task than supplying Baghdad.

    The US woudl also have to cope with a likely uprising amongst the Iraqi shia.

    I expect any military action against Iran for the next few years at least to be restricted to airstrikes.

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