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Sandpit

July 28th, 2014

A new sandpit for long side discussions, idees fixes and so on.

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  1. Watkin Tench
    July 29th, 2014 at 01:19 | #1

    I see from an earlier Monday Morning Message Board that this blog attracts GM scolds and apologists for organic agriculture. Here is my two cents worth.

    Organic food is a market segment in capitalist food production that is a maketing con job just like bottled water and alternative medicine eg homeopathy, chiro, iridology etc… Only suckers fall for these con jobs.

    Local organic food is what we all had to rely on 200 years ago. The result was extremely low yields and frequent famines. If we listened to romanticising nutjobs like Vandana Shiva, who has collected medallions and certificates from literally hundreds of Left Wing university departments and environmental groups, the world would once again see mass famine, disease and war.

    Organic food production is so land hungry because of its poor yields that if the world was to adopt it we would have to chop down every remaining forest.

    Organic food is no safer than conventional or GM food; just ask the 4,000 victims of organic sprouts in Germany in 2011 (other than the 60 who died).

    The vegetables we eat are a stew of naturally occurring toxins, many of which are the plants own defences against pests. 99.99% of the pesticides we eat are “natural” and we eat about 1.5 grams of these on average each day. Most of the naturally occurring toxins haven’t been studied but at least 40 of the common ones are carcinogenic and there isn’t a single veggie that we eat that doesn’t contain them.

    A single cup of coffee contains dozens of known carcinogens but probably many more because most of the 1,000 plus chemicals that occur in coffee have never been studied.

    All of this info is readily available on the net and in the scientific literature but left wing environmental reporters conceal it or lie about it just like lunatics on the right lie about climate change.

  2. kevin1
    July 29th, 2014 at 09:24 | #2

    @Watkin Tench
    Why the war on organic food? I accept most of your comparisons with conventional farming, presence of toxins etc., as does the consumer market, where it is of minority revealed preference ie. whatever people say, they don’t buy it. I’m not yet concerned about GMO, but why conflate them? It’s still fairly new and raises different issues than organic farming which merit scrutiny and debate – that’s rationalism.

    I suspect these “leftwing environmental reporters” you are suspicious about are usually catering to a lingering interest from the majority – it’s got news value because many of us are still uneasy about orthodox farming due to its factory modeling of nature. Not to mention the economic externalities: the danger of “tragedy of the commons”. We reject the emphasis on marketing the visually attractive tomato – we’d rather the tasty one, even with blemishes. The poor old orange growers in Sunraysia used to have trouble selling their Navels due to the green spot which put consumers off – now that’s irrational.

    In fact, you start to sound like the purists you criticise by making a cancer-coffee link, this is the stuff of daily media prattle. Perhaps you would like to progress this to action by drawing a conclusion? You concede we don’t know a lot about the safety of our food yet still want to close down debate, and ridicule a type of food which some people prefer to eat and pay more to do so. I guess I’m happy for others to effectively conduct privately funded research in homeopathy, iridology, chiropractic on themselves – something might be discovered which will be of general benefit which we otherwise might never know.

    What’s broken that you’re trying to fix?

  3. July 29th, 2014 at 11:24 | #3

    Thought bubble: Since so much of the world’s wealth is invested in much of the worlds debt, wouldn’t the easiest way to redistribute wealth be to simply declare all debt as odious? If we allowed people to own outright what they have obtained through borrowing what effect would it have on society. would it be entirely negative?

  4. Troy Prideaux
    July 29th, 2014 at 11:46 | #4

    @alex
    It would really screw up the entire financial system, markets, commerce and confidence. In Australia it would likely lead to more inequality however in the US it might lead to more equality albeit at a significant social cost.

  5. Nevil Kingston-Brown
    July 29th, 2014 at 12:48 | #5

    @Watkin Tench
    We are seeing mass famine, disease and war.

  6. July 29th, 2014 at 13:06 | #6

    @Troy Prideaux
    I realise that’s the obvious answer – but debt seems such an abstraction – and it occured to me that the obligation to maintain wealth inequality exists at a behavioural level, where citizens dutifully repay debts, in order to maintain the system that benefits the wealthy more than it does the indebted. not a new idea i realise but sometime i run the experiment in my mind and wonder what system shocks would come first and whether a modern society could survive them.

  7. Fran Barlow
    July 29th, 2014 at 13:21 | #7

    The lack of food is not an important reason for people going hungry. Maldistribution is the main problem.

  8. Troy Prideaux
    July 29th, 2014 at 13:29 | #8

    @alex
    Yeah… The world and earth would likely be in a healthier and happier state without it.

  9. Watkin Tench
    July 29th, 2014 at 14:07 | #9

    kevin1: “In fact, you start to sound like the purists you criticise by making a cancer-coffee link … ”

    I drink 8 cups of coffee most days. I’m not in the least concerned about carcinogens in coffee, I’m simply reinforcing the point that the organic industry’s concerns about trace elements of pesticides in conventional agriculture is risible and a cynical marketing ploy.

    Likewise I’m not worried if fools chose homeopathy over conventional medicine, I’m merely drawing a comparison.

    Fran Barlow:

    The lack of food is not an important reason for people going hungry. Maldistribution is the main problem.

    The South Sudanese are starving because of civil war. War and poor governance are much bigger drivers of hunger.

  10. J-D
    July 29th, 2014 at 18:18 | #10

    @alex

    Leaving out of consideration the dislocation caused, a general cancellation of debts would make net debtors better off but net creditors worse off. If your mortgage is bigger than your bank balance this might suit you; if your bank balance is bigger than your mortgage, perhaps not.

  11. Fran Barlow
    July 30th, 2014 at 08:11 | #11

    Brown coal power plant to close, due to falling energy demand in Victoria

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-29/vic-coal-power-station-to-close2c-despite-bail-out/5633580

  12. Fran Barlow
    July 30th, 2014 at 08:13 | #12

    @Watkin Tench

    That civil war and poor governance contribute to malnutrition doesn’t aid your plea against organic food.

  13. calyptorhynchus
    July 30th, 2014 at 08:37 | #13

    @ Watkins Tench

    That’s nice, just make sure you don’t buy any organic food, will you.

  14. Nevil Kingston-Brown
    July 30th, 2014 at 10:17 | #14

    @Watkin Tench
    I would like to see some cited references for your claim that organic agriculture is significantly more land-hungry. I’ve never come across this claim before, and it contradicts a number of studies that I am aware of (most high profile being one some years ago from the US dept of Agriculture showing that organic farming methods significantly reduced land degradation and runoff).

  15. July 30th, 2014 at 13:54 | #15

    @Fran Barlow
    Good news about the Energy Brix (we can’t spell) Power Station closing down in Victoria, Fran. It’s only a small generator, I think maybe 120 megawatts, but it’s still excellent news. Black coal plants and South Australia’s brown coal capacity has been shutting down or running at low capacity for years now, but Victoria’s outlandishly CO2 intensive brown coal plants have kept on chugging on and choking on. The Energy Brix Power Station was on its last legs being 58 years old, but basically all of Victoria’s brown coal capacity is on its last legs and only kept going through extensive repair and maintenance. I wonder what its decommissioning costs will be as there is a good chance the place is riddled with asbestos. Perhaps the best thing will be to seal it in a concrete sarcophagus and leave it for future generations to deal with. I sometimes wonder if it is decommissing costs resulting from asbestos which explains why certain people seem so deperate to keep Victoria’s old brown coal plants operating.

  16. Tim Macknay
    July 30th, 2014 at 16:17 | #16

    More info on the Energy Brix closure here. There seems to be some suggestion that the claim it is a “temporary” closure is a feint to avoid site cleanup costs.

  17. Watkin Tench
    July 30th, 2014 at 17:07 | #17

    @Nevil Kingston-Brown
    I guess common sense is a good starting point. Organic food production doesn’t need expensive synthetic fertiliser/ agri chem nor does it generally use expensive patented seed. If it also doesn’t require much more land, you would think all farmers would go organic since the production costs would be so much lower.

    But if common sense is not enough, you might want to look at historical yield data. In particular, you might like to compare yields from the time when organic was the only alternative with yields from today’s capital intensive highly mechanised high or medium input farms. These comparisons are readily available and I will not insult you by assuming you can’t find them for yourself online in under one minute.

    Here is one meta-analysis comparing conventional and organic production systems. In the interests of fairness, I don’t cliam this or any other study is the final word and the more you read about the comparisons the more it becomes clear that they aren’t easy to do.

    @Fran Barlow

    You appear to subscribe to a range of fashionable undergrad prejudices against Monsanto. Monsanto has not sued farmers whose crops have been inadvertently cross contaminated with GM seed. In fact GM farmers and Monsanto has been the victim of such lawsuits, for instance the Marsh lawsuit in WA and the Organic Seed Growers and Trade Association lawsuit in the US.

    Organic food is a bourgeois fad like bottled water and, well, hyphenated names. It allows better recompensed folk to set themselves apart from and above the unenlightened working class whilst symbolically, in their own minds, rebelling against the big end of town. It is all showmanship.

  18. July 30th, 2014 at 17:10 | #18

    Thanks for the link, Tim. I see it was a 164 MW plant and not about 120 MW as I thought. (I guessed 120 MW from its CO2 emissions, but obviously it wasn’t running at full capacity when those were measured.)

    Here in Adelaide we are familiar with the old, “We could open it up again at any time!” trick as Port Stanvac oil refinery has stood empty for years as a strangely beautiful monument to human stupidity. And as for closing down two years after receiving a $50 million compensation, well, the government could have given each of the 70 workers $700,000 each and set them up for life and still come out ahead.

  19. July 30th, 2014 at 20:04 | #19

    Great that the Energy Brixton is closing down, and excuse me for changing the subject, but did anyone see Morrison on 7.30 report. Just appalling.

    I’m really really liking Sarah Henderson.

  20. July 30th, 2014 at 20:05 | #20

    Sorry Energy Brix, damn auto correct

  21. Watkin Tench
    July 30th, 2014 at 22:25 | #21

    Morrison had a 6-0 6-0 6-0 victory on the 7:30 report tonight.

    The claim that Sri-Lankan born Tamils who have lived in parts of India that are predominately Tamil are being persecuted to the extent that they have no option other than to travel thousands of miles to Australia is risible.

    If Morrison had more spine he would have put these characters on orange life boats with emergency beacons, food and water and towed them to the edge of Indian waters.

    Meanwhile, thanks to the Green Left, we now know that hundreds of new “Australians” have been busily blowing themselves up and chopping off heads in Syria, Afghanistan and goodness knows where else. We also know from experience that when these young men return to Australia many of them will bring Islamist Jihad ideology with them.

  22. Ikonoclast
    July 30th, 2014 at 23:17 | #22

    @Watkin Tench

    Why are the “Green Left” responsible? The LNP are in control of current immigration and refugee policy. The Labor Party were in control before them.

    Who are the “Green Left” anyway? There is an Australian Greens Party at federal level but no Green Left party that I am aware of. There is a Green Left weekly. Who do refer to by writing “Green Left” with capital letters?

    You suggest towing Tamil refugees (genuine or not genuine as their cases might be) right across the Indian Ocean on small, enclosed life boats. This is the implication of towing them to the edge of Indian waters. If they were towed from Fremantle this would be a distance of about 6,500 km. Life boats towed at ship cruising speed or a little less across open ocean, through possible tropical storms etc.! I think it would be a rough ride to say the least. I suspect many babies and small children would die and possibly quite a few adults as well. A quick be-heading might be more humane. Perhaps you would prefer to just have them beheaded in Kings Square, Fremantle. Given your suggestion, I find it amazing that you consider yourself morally superior to the Jihadists you condemn.

  23. ZM
    July 30th, 2014 at 23:24 | #23

    Organic farming does not emit as much greenhouse gasses from fertilising the soil as farming with artificial fertilisers emits. (Machine and transport emissions would be around the same dependent on machinery and distance etc)

  24. Megan
    July 31st, 2014 at 00:28 | #24

    Perhaps if I confined myself to spouting hateful news ltd talking points rather than asking serious questions about the evidence behind establishment media assumptions I would find more favour?

  25. Megan
    July 31st, 2014 at 00:30 | #25

    Not that I am after “favour”.

    Fairness of treatment would suffice.

  26. Watkin Tench
    July 31st, 2014 at 01:09 | #26

    Fremantle? You didn’t see the 7:30 report or read the transcript, I take it.

    I feel greater pity for the starving woman and children of South Sudan. Compassion doesn’t mean being taken in by every gold digger who rocks up in a boat.

  27. zoot
    July 31st, 2014 at 01:50 | #27

    @Watkin Tench
    And what did you do today to alleviate the situation of the starving woman and children of South Sudan?

  28. J-D
    July 31st, 2014 at 07:34 | #28

    @Watkin Tench

    We know from experience what to expect from people who return to Australia after having blown themselves up in other countries? Please stay after class so we can discuss this.

  29. Ikonoclast
    July 31st, 2014 at 08:30 | #29

    @Watkin Tench

    I am not aware of any deepwater port near Curtin detention centre. But if you insist on them being towed from Derby W.A., I guess it could be done, probably after barging them out to sea. The towing distance in that case would still be about 5,000 km.

    You have written a literally idiotic thing and I am taking you at your literal word. Have you any idea how dangerous, difficult and costly such a towing operation would be? It would actually be cheaper to fly them back to India.

    Apparently there are 37 children in this group.

  30. July 31st, 2014 at 08:30 | #30

    I engage with Watkin Trench’s arguments, not because they are well made, but because I assume there must be many others out there who think like WT and I would like to understand why.

    Morrison’s sole argument was that the asylum seekers had lived in India for a “long time” hence they couldn’t be refugees. First of all, is there any evidence of this? Morrison did not provide any. I sometimes get the impression that our asylum seeker policy is determined by gossip.

    Secondly, by this argument, the longer people have been in refugee camps, the less chance they would have of being resettled. Surely even you, Mr (?) Trench, can see that is a soul destroying position.

  31. Ikonoclast
    July 31st, 2014 at 08:41 | #31

    Australia’s current refugee policy operates to get the most inhumane result at the greatest cost. There is nothing to recommend this policy. It would more humane and more economic to rapidly process all refugees and asylum seekers on-shore in or near major population centres. The money being wasted on our Pacific and outback “Gulag Archipelegos” could be directly spent on rapid, legal and fair processing according to all proper UN treaties and humanitarian requirements. Then all legitimate refugees and asylum seekers could swiftly gain permanent residence and non-legitimate people could be repatriated expeditiously.

    If it became necessary, our voluntary immigration rate could be adjusted to keep total immigration within the bounds of our population policy… if we had a population policy.

  32. July 31st, 2014 at 08:44 | #32

    The other question I have for Watkin Trench relates to his claim about the Green Left and “new” Australians blowing themselves up and chopping heads of in Syria, Afghanistan and “goodness knows where else”. (His actual comment sounds as if he blames the Green Left for the fact that we know about this, but I presume that’s not what he meant.)

    @Watkin Tench

    I am I guess one of the Green Left you talk about – I’m a Greens supporter on most issues and I have left wing views on most issues, according to general standards (eg ABC Vote compass and the like). Do you mean to suggest that people like me are responsible for young Australian men becoming involved in the fighting you talk about, and if so, how?

  33. July 31st, 2014 at 08:47 | #33

    Also, I’ve been participating in and observing this blog for some time now and I agree there should be some concern about the way Megan is treated. Megan seems to be the only person who gets banned when someone attacks her – kind of blame the victim scenario.

    Professor Quiggin, I’m talking unconscious sexism again.

  34. Julie Thomas
    July 31st, 2014 at 09:17 | #34

    @Val

    “Seems to be” is a good way to phrase your observations.

    There are other points of view about how one ‘ought’ to respond when attacked; there are even other points of view about what constitutes an attack.

    It can even be a growth experience to be ‘banned’ – but this hasn’t actually happened has it? Or are you using banned in a different sense than I understand it.

  35. Watkin Tench
    July 31st, 2014 at 14:26 | #35

    Val,

    you were mostly kept in moderation on the pro-feminst Larvatus Prodeo blog because of your frequent and vexatious allegations of sexism and because of your obsessive commenting on Gillard. I put it to you that your accusation against John Quiggin is similarly vexatious and indicative of your own sexism, namely a rather scary brand of misandry.

    As to the Tamils, I note this Canadian report about how they return to Sri Lanka for hols.

    I wonder how many Jewish refugees returned to the Third Reich in the 1930s for a spot of sight seeing?

    Meanwhile the UN tells us that thousands of Tamils are voluntarily resettling in SL.

    Clearly the current system is being gamed by economic migrants.

    As it so happens, I went to a DIC tribunal hearing during the Howard era in order to bring my wife to Australia. It was a joke. The person who heard the case was a luvvie and the whole thing was over in 15 minutes.

  36. Julie Thomas
    July 31st, 2014 at 15:48 | #36

    @Watkin Tench

    lol I put it to *you* that *your* comment to Val is evidence that you are someone who derives some sort of satisfaction from the discomfiture of others. As far as I remember from my childhood, this is not a characteristic of a moderate conservative or of someone who is to be admired and sets an example to others.

    I think, that you are motivated to make comments here – comments that you think will annoy people you don’t like – when you get irritable. Is there not this vague sense of irritability that you experience more and more these days?

    And, that irritability is so annoying and when it takes hold of you, reminding yourself how well you have done doesn’t work as well as it should, does it?

    Clearly something is happening and you don’t know what it is. Is your real name Mr Jones, perhaps?

  37. Fran Barlow
    July 31st, 2014 at 16:01 | #37

    PrQ

    Can I ask you to reflect on whether Watkin Tench’s remarks at 21 above are within the discourse one ought to accept at this blog? I refer expressly to this passage:

    Meanwhile, thanks to the Green Left, we now know that hundreds of new “Australians” have been busily blowing themselves up and chopping off heads in Syria, Afghanistan and goodness knows where else.

    Firstly, the claim clearly fails the standard set out in Bolt v Eatock. There’s no evidence that “hundreds of new “Australians” have been busily blowing themselves up and chopping off heads in Syria”. We have a claim that one 18-year-old, (as I understand it he was born here) who staged a suicide attack in Iraq. We have a couple of others, also born here as I understand it, who have allegedly committed an atrocity in Syria. As others note there is no such thing as a “Green Left” in Australia, and to the extent that the term descibes those who see themselves as “Green and Left”, we clearly have nothing to do with people becoming involved in criminal activity. I know of nobody who self-describes as green and left who feels anything but disgust at the criminal violence going on in Iraq and Syria. This is a set of totally unsupported smears, informed by the usages of the culture wars.

    There is another poster, who strays in the same direction on refugee and ethnicity matters, who has been told to abandon the topic because he is unable to avoid writing bigoted nonsense. It seems to me that Watkin Tench’s observations easily fall within the same rubric.

  38. Val
    July 31st, 2014 at 16:13 | #38

    @Watkin Tench
    I did spend some time in pre-moderation in LP (my comments were normally published, but first checked by moderators) but it was actually more because I was critical of the blog owner, Mark Bahnisch, I think. You’d have to talk to the moderators, especially tigtog, who definitely has something against me since she also has banned me from commenting at her blog (Hoyden about town) and told me that six (as I recall) other feminists on LP also strongly disapproved of me (apparently they had discussed this in a private forum).

    I don’t actually understand her reasoning, to tell the truth, but I have to say I’m not the only feminist that she has had fights with. It’s some kind of strange dynamic that I don’t really claim to understand, but I have to say it all seems a little bit sad and “mean girls” to me. I try not to worry too much about it, though it is unpleasant.

    For you to reproach me on the grounds that I have had arguments with other feminists seems a little far-fetched.

  39. Val
    July 31st, 2014 at 16:20 | #39

    @Watkin Tench
    By they way, you appear to have taken the name of an 18th century British officer, from my quick google? For myself, I am who I am, which makes it easy for people to find information on me.

    I’m not suggesting everyone should reveal their identity on the internet, obviously for some people there are good reasons why they prefer to remain anonymous. But attacking another commenter while hiding your own identity, which you appear to be doing, looks ethically questionable.

  40. Fran Barlow
    July 31st, 2014 at 16:27 | #40

    @Val

    To be fair Val, there was at LP an express rule about not arguing the toss at moderators’ decisions in public. Ai I recall it, that was what created the friction.

    I wasn’t always in agreement with the women over there, but I accepted their rulings and was never moderated. I seem to recall that even here, you sailed pretty close to the wind in the course of some passionate pleading about the misogynist provenance of the ouster of Julia Gillard.

    I don’t want to be part of re-opening that matter now, but as a general rule, I find that treating participation in blogs as analogous to visiting someone’s home and accepting that the host makes the rules works pretty well. If you don’t like the rules, you leave.

    I would add that having the last word and settling a point of contention are not at all the same thing. That one chooses to say no more doesn’t entail a concession that one has been disproved. If you have put your strongest claims as clearly as you can then be satisfied with that.

    In a day long ago I used to feel an obligation to answer in detail every climate denier I came across. Now I generally don’t bother, and proceed for the most part as if their blather was just noise. It’s a liberating thing.

  41. Watkin Tench
    July 31st, 2014 at 16:47 | #41

    Fran,

    Even Al Jazeera reports that a couple hundred Australian Muslims have fought in Syria alone, while dozens of others had been prevented from getting involved by having their passports confiscated. There have been recent reports of two Australian citizen suicide bombers in Iraq and then there is the man who can plainly be seen with a lopped head in each hand and a big grin.

    There have been heaps of reports over the years about Australian citizen involvement in terror groups in places like Yemen, Aghanistan etc…

    Al Jazeera quote a terror expert who reports “that one in nine Westerners who fight in foreign jihadist insurgencies ends up becoming involved in terrorist plots back home.”

    I think one of the defining qualities of folk who belong to what I call the Green Left is their wilful blindness to what is happening and their willingness to muzzle dissent.

  42. Debbieanne
    July 31st, 2014 at 16:47 | #42

    @Val
    Ditto, Val. Don’t like to watch political interviews, very much, I get too angry. I did get, very, angry watching this one, but was also impressed by Sarah

  43. Fran Barlow
    July 31st, 2014 at 17:13 | #43

    @watkinTench

    Actually it guesses that perhaps 200 Australian Muslims have fought in Syria but concedes that exact numbers are unavailable. It doesn’t try guessing how many of these were busily blowing themselves up and chopping off heads. This is pure handwaving on your part. Nor does it say that these folk were refugees. Either they are Australians of Lebanese descent or perhaps immigrants, though this too is unclear, because they are speculating.

    You are now passing off their speculation as if it were uncontested fact in order to vilify a third group — refugees — as putative killers. Your wilfulness is marked by reckless commentary in the service of bigotry.

  44. Ikonoclast
    July 31st, 2014 at 17:44 | #44

    @Watkin Tench

    Is anyone muzzling you here? Or do you mistake disagreement and counter-argument with being muzzled? I can still see your comments so how are you being muzzled?

    How is the Green Left (as a general group) responsible for results under Labor and now LNP policy? Has the Green Left ever run Australian domestic and foreign policy?

    How would you stop the problems you are concerned about?

  45. Nevil Kingston-Brown
    July 31st, 2014 at 18:12 | #45

    @Watkin Tench
    To compare yields from non-organic farms today with yields from non-capitalised, peasant farms 200 years ago would be an obvious apples and oranges comparison. It’s a ridiculous non-sequitur. Whatever else organic farming might or might not be, it doesn’t mean hand-tools, ox-ploughs, and medieval levels of knowledge (also, subsistence peasant farms tend to focus on maximising yield per unit of labour and use staggered intercropping systems to ensure a minumum safe yield all year round, rather than the commercial farm’s focus on dollar yield per hectare/dollar invested).
    The study you have linked is interesting. I note the conclusion that organic farms use 84% more land per unit of yield. However, the study also shows significantly lower Greenhouse gas production and energy/phosphorous/nitrogen use per unit of land & yield, as well as higher biodiversity on organic farms. Thus the result seems to be something of a wash as far as claiming the impact of organic farming is better or worse on the overall environment, and certainly not that it is so unreliable that its use would lead to mass famine. The study concludes that there is a lot of potential for combining organic and low impact non-organic techiques to get more with less impact. Perhaps you could conclude the same.

  46. patrickb
    July 31st, 2014 at 18:15 | #46

    The disgusting Morrison slanders the head of the Human Rights Commission and then we learn this:
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/inquiry-hears-immigration-department-pressured-doctors-to-withdraw-report-showing-alarming-rates-of-mental-health-issues-among-children-in-detention-20140731-3cvpx.html

    The Kafkaesque nature of the reply from the immigration department official is equally abhorrent. It looks as though an already corrupted bureaucracy is capable of plumbing undefined depths. Taking a child’s epilepsy medication for christ’s sake! So much for our much vaunted ‘Aussie Spirit’. Judging by their level of outrage (i.e. very low) many of my fellow citizens would appear to be capable of filling the role a concentration camp guard.

  47. Megan
    July 31st, 2014 at 18:48 | #47

    @patrickb

    Judging by their level of outrage

    I think it’s there but the establishment media does a huge amount to mask it/misrepresent it.

    I watched most of the Sydney hearings today. This morning about 24 people were watching the livestream. By the time it broke down mid-afternoon about 100 people were watching via livestream.

    If they weren’t so terrified of “us” and our outrage they wouldn’t be working so hard to hide the truth.

    As an aside, has anybody seen any evidence whatsoever that people have been released and safely re-settled on Nauru? (I mean actual direct evidence – I’ve seen the “reporting” that it has happened but not so much as a single photo of, or interview with, any of these refugees).

  48. July 31st, 2014 at 19:04 | #48

    Someone on twitter has just sent me a copy of a Bill Leak cartoon in The Australian. It appears to be suggesting Arabs in Gaza are sending their children to be killed in order to win the “PR war”.

    Has anyone else seen this? I don’t ever read The Australian. I’m sure it’s true but at the same time it’s still hard to believe, as if there is no depth too low for The Australian.

  49. Tim Macknay
    July 31st, 2014 at 19:15 | #49

    @Fran Barlow

    There is another poster, who strays in the same direction on refugee and ethnicity matters, who has been told to abandon the topic because he is unable to avoid writing bigoted nonsense. It seems to me that Watkin Tench’s observations easily fall within the same rubric.

    Careful Fran. mention his name and he appears 😉

    In a day long ago I used to feel an obligation to answer in detail every climate denier I came across. Now I generally don’t bother, and proceed for the most part as if their blather was just noise. It’s a liberating thing.

    Amen to that.

  50. Watkin Tench
    July 31st, 2014 at 19:35 | #50

    Fran,

    you unwittingly sound like Keith Windschuttle in the Fabrication of Aboriginal History.

    A wide range of members of the intelligence community, including chaps like Andrew Zammit, who is a lefty or a centrist as far as I can tell, has written at length about Australian Muslim involvement in world Jihad and he confirms what I am saying.

    People don’t travel all the way to the badlands of the ME to join Jihadist group to make falafels; they join to kill folk. There are plenty of gore sites on the web that show happy Jihadists posing for happy snaps with as many as a dozen heads. It appears to be standard practice.

    Do you think Henry Reynolds should suffer puinishment pursuant to the Bolt v Eatock precedent unless he provides documentary proof of the death of the 20,000 Aborigines he says were killed by whites in frontier violence.

    How about we apply the same evidentiary standards to crime and misconduct regardless of the colour, gender and social class of the victims and perpetrators?

    Val,

    I once made the mistake of using my name in a letter to the local rag in support of a kangaroo cull and got unsolicited angry phone calls as a result. Never again.

  51. alfred venison
    July 31st, 2014 at 19:40 | #51

    @Val
    VAL! (you there?) i’ve warmed to you over the year. you’re worth ten tig-togs! hands down. sometimes its not worth the trouble trying to be in clubs that don’t want you, they’re not worth enlightening. -cheers, venison.

  52. J-D
    July 31st, 2014 at 20:50 | #52

    @Watkin Tench

    Supposing for the sake of argument that all these things are so, what conclusion do you draw?

  53. July 31st, 2014 at 20:55 | #53

    @Fran Barlow
    Fran I can’t resist admitting that I also have comments deleted at The Conversation for saying Shaun Carney was talking sh-t, and that Michelle Grattan was a “bit creepy” in the way she treated female political leaders.

    I sometimes wonder if I’m a total asset to feminism, on the whole. But I can’t help thinking it’s funny.

  54. July 31st, 2014 at 20:57 | #54

    @alfred venison
    Oh thanks Alfred I didn’t see your comment before! I hope you like my latest ‘confession of a born trouble-maker’ above.

  55. Ikonoclast
    July 31st, 2014 at 20:58 | #55

    Hmmm, let’s look at this another way. Was the US attempt to impose the New American Century on the entire globe a form of religious and ideological crusade? Are warlike Crusaders fundamentally (pun intended) any different from warlike Jihadists? (The question is formulated like this because Crusaders and Jihadists are not all warlike. There are other forms and meanings of “crusade” and “jihad”.)

    In one sense, the attempt to impose the New American Century has already failed. The US has lost every significant war it has launched since 2001 in the sense of failing to achieve or hold on to its key objectives. At a strategic level, the US continues to contain its main rivals (China and Russia) to a very significant extent. But this containment stance and the overall attempt to remain a global hegemon is resulting in serious strategic overreach. The US cannot sustain this posture much longer.

    Much of the violence in the M.E. can be seen as;

    (1) The delayed irruptions occuring as “orders and borders” imposed by western imperialism collapse along with the collapse of western imperial power.

    (2) The reaction to invasion, occupation and decimation of M.E. populations by western imperialists.

    These final invasions were western imperialism’s “last hurrah”; an attempt to convince others and itself that it is not failing.

  56. kevin1
    July 31st, 2014 at 21:12 | #56

    @Watkin Tench

    I drink 8 cups of coffee most days. I’m not in the least concerned about carcinogens in coffee, I’m simply reinforcing the point that the organic industry’s concerns about trace elements of pesticides in conventional agriculture is risible

    Care to elaborate on what is prima facie a silly comment?

  57. Watkin Tench
    July 31st, 2014 at 21:30 | #57

    @J-D says: “Supposing for the sake of argument that all these things are so, what conclusion do you draw?”

    My conclusion is that we’ll possibly see scenes like this in Melbourne and Sydney if we don’t have a frank and open national debate about multiculturalism and immigration.

  58. Watkin Tench
    July 31st, 2014 at 21:32 | #58

    J-D says: “Supposing for the sake of argument that all these things are so, what conclusion do you draw?”

    My conclusion is that we’ll possibly see scenes like this in Melbourne and Sydney if we don’t have a frank and open national debate about multiculturalism and immigration.

  59. July 31st, 2014 at 21:45 | #59

    Watkin Tench, if you are drinking 8 cups of coffee a day, it quite likely is making you irritable, plus other side effects. You’d be better off to cut down.

    Not that I’m trying to restrict your freedom or muzzle you. Just tellin ya.

  60. July 31st, 2014 at 21:50 | #60

    @Watkin Tench
    Better Health Channel on caffeine – for your info

  61. Watkin Tench
    July 31st, 2014 at 21:55 | #61

    @kevin1

    Not sure what you mean, Kevin1.

    As I said previously, 99.99% of the pesticides we consume are the naturally occurring pesticides produced within the veggies we eat. This averages out at 1.5 grams of natural pesticides per person per day in the US and I assume the figs for Oz would be about the same. I want to know why dishonest greenies conceal this fact and endlessly bang on about the 0.01% synthetic residue pesticides.

  62. Watkin Tench
    July 31st, 2014 at 21:59 | #62

    Thanks, Val.

    I do not drink or smoke. Coffee is my only vice. I also have sleep apnoea and only get two or three hours sleep most nights and if I don’t have coffee I can’t function. Getting old ain’t for the faint hearted 😉

  63. J-D
    July 31st, 2014 at 22:17 | #63

    @Watkin Tench

    If we did have a frank and open national debate about multiculturalism and immigration, what would be your contribution to it?

  64. alfred venison
    July 31st, 2014 at 22:35 | #64

    are “naturally occurring pesticides produced within the veggies” a concern?

    is 0.01% synthetic pesticide residue insignificant?
    -a.v.

  65. Megan
    July 31st, 2014 at 22:41 | #65

    According to Reuters report from April:

    The United States would increase assistance and send the shipments to moderate rebel factions mostly based in Jordan, along Syria’s southern border, the officials familiar with the plan told Reuters.

    The additional supplies are likely to be modest and will not include surface-to-air missiles, the officials said, raising questions over the impact in a civil war that has killed an estimated 136,000 people, produced nine million refugees and threatens to destabilize the region.

    Rebels have urged the Obama administration to provide advanced weapons including surface-to-air missiles and exert greater military pressure on Russia-backed Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, who has intensified bombings of rebel neighborhoods in recent month.

    It is well established that the US initially backed the people who beheaded the Syrian army soldiers depicted in the link provided (without any warning of graphic content, thanks) by Watkin Tench at #7 above.

    I’m genuinely surprised that such a link – to the seriously creepy “catholic.org” site – can sail through ‘moderation’ at the same time that others are unable to even post half-neutered links to far less controversial sites.

    On the assumption that the graphic image linked to is real, this is a direct result of the US intervention in Syria via its (now apparently out of control and disowned) proxies.

  66. Nevil Kingston-Brown
    July 31st, 2014 at 22:44 | #66

    @Watkin Tench
    Why do dishonest alarmist greenies bang on about pesticides?
    This is why.
    Much the same reason that previous generations of dishonest alarmist greenies banged on about chlorofluorocarbons, lead, asbestos and tobacco, really.

  67. Watkin Tench
    July 31st, 2014 at 23:20 | #67

    There are much worse images coming out of Syria.

    Grown ups have no excuse not to see what Jihadists, many of them citizens of the West, are doing.

    My current favourites are the pics of dead Christian girls with crucifixes protruding from every conceivable orifice. Our Jihadi friends are very creative.

    America has nothing to do with it; the Jihadis are big boys and girls and are accountable for their own actions.

    JD-

    My contribution would be to argue for no further immigration from any ethno-religious group that has an established track record for carrying out or planning large numbers of terrorist acts in the West until the Jihadi genie is back in its bottle.

    Note that Britain alone has convicted over 330 persons on terror related offences since 9/11. It should not be hard to compile an aggregate list for all western countries and to determine the aetiology of this particular social ill.

  68. Ikonoclast
    August 1st, 2014 at 00:32 | #68

    @Watkin Tench

    I am bit concerned about your comments and their strangely ambivalent wording. Are you sure you are not developing an unhealthy fascination with the very cruelty you claim to be condemning?

    As for, “no further immigration from any ethno-religious group that has an established track record for carrying out or planning large numbers of terrorist acts” then I guess we had better ban immigrants from just about all European nations and the USA. Have you forgotten (for example) the Belgian Congo, French Indo-China, French Algeria, Dutch East Indies, the Third Reich, the Soviet Union, British Kenya, British Rhodesia, British India, British South Africa, British…. oh heck the whole British Empire, US… oh heck all US imperial history.

    But hang on a minute. The lawyer in me notes that you say, “no further immigration from any ethno-religious group that has an established track record for carrying out or planning large numbers of terrorist acts in the West.”

    So we only care about terrorist actions in the West? This conveniently lets us (the West) off for committing terrorist actions everywhere else. But then what about Western countries that have committed terrorist actions in the West? The UK in Ireland? The IRA in Ireland and England? I could go on and on. History is replete with examples.

    By your rubric, humans commit terrorist acts therefore human immigration into Australia must cease. That would be the only consistent way to apply it.

  69. Megan
    August 1st, 2014 at 00:53 | #69

    @Watkin Tench

    My current favourites are the pics of dead Christian girls with crucifixes protruding from every conceivable orifice. Our Jihadi friends are very creative.

    America has nothing to do with it

    1. How can you tell the dead girls are Christians?

    2. If your ‘favourite’ pictures depict what you say, then contrary to the baseless assertion that “America has nothing to do with it”, every recent historical record of US-backed atrocities (especially in Latin America – think “School Of The Americas”) point to America having everything to do with it.

    The people carrying out such atrocities are close enough to 100% US armed, backed, supplied, trained, financed and supported.

  70. Watkin Tench
    August 1st, 2014 at 01:22 | #70

    Ikonoclast

    If the investigation I recommend establishes that Flemish folkdancers, Jersey Quakers or Scottish Presbyterians are carrying out most of the terror related activities in the West in our current epoch, let’s say since the turn of the century, then of course my injunction would apply to them as much as anyone else.

    Megan,

    Since you insinuate that spy agencies are interfering with your computer and telecommunications and you lied about David Ferris and the number of Global Research links on your site, I doubt we can have a profitable discussion.

    My friends at Five Eyes (oops, I’ve let the cat out of the bag now!) also tell me that you’ve been retweeting the notorious holocaust denier and pro-Hamas antisemite Marilyn Shepherd’s tweets on your twitter page. That says it all really.

  71. Megan
    August 1st, 2014 at 01:39 | #71

    @Watkin Tench

    I didn’t “lie” about Ferris.

    There are well over 100,000 articles on my site. I searched using “springhillvoice” + “globalresearch” in ‘Google’ and only found the one link, to an article critical of the destruction of Libya – as previously mentioned. You – kudos – managed to find another 11 references.

    I don’t believe that I have ever actually visited “Global Research” (your friends at the NSA can check that out and get back to me).

    When I post an aggregated article I try to post the most original link – e.g.: I might see an article mentioned somewhere but I try to track back to sources so that the attribution is correct.

    I’m not sure what the modern equivalent of a “Godwin” is, but you get one for “pro-Hamas anti-Semite”. Maybe it’s ‘Netanyahu’s Law’?

  72. Julie Thomas
    August 1st, 2014 at 06:50 | #72

    @Val

    I can’t count the number of comments I have had deleted on The Conversation site and a few weeks ago I even managed to upset the moderator so much that he locked my account. I truly am sorry that I was not more considerate of the moderators difficulties but I ‘survived’ the unfairness of that arbitrary and unfair decision – of course it was – and it has been a positive experience.

    I have so much more time to read the comments here and my output of hats and aprons for the craft shop has increased. I do enjoy working with my hands and creating nice things does make me happy.

    I’m not sure what it means to be an asset to feminism; we all can only do the best we can and as long as the next time we wade into the fray and attempt to point out to the ‘others’ how and why they are wrong, we use something that we have learned from the previous encounter, we have done well, I think. 🙂

  73. Julie Thomas
    August 1st, 2014 at 07:12 | #73

    @Watkin Tench

    If “Flemish folkdancers, Jersey Quakers or Scottish Presbyterians” were “carrying out most of the terror related activities in the West in our current epoch”, would you think that it would be a good idea to try and understand why these people were behaving in such irrational and dysfunctional ways?

    Did it ever occur to you that by understanding ‘the others’ and understanding why and how people like you create some people as ‘the others’, we could prevent this sort of behaviour?

  74. J-D
    August 1st, 2014 at 07:48 | #74

    @Watkin Tench

    No ethno-religious group has an established track record for carrying out terrorist attacks. Terrorist attacks are carried out by individuals, by small groups of individuals, and by organisations of various kinds, but not by ethno-religious groups. In order to carry out your prescription, it would be necessary to tabulate terrorist attacks and then attribute each one to an ‘ethno-religious group’ on some basis. To which ‘ethno-religious group’ would you attribute the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995, the Ecole Polytechnique massacre of 1989, or the Tokyo subway Sarin gas attack of 1995? The way you frame the question indicates not a fair and open-minded inquiry but special pleading for a predetermined conclusion.

  75. August 1st, 2014 at 07:54 | #75

    @Megan
    People have often commented about the oddness of some of the moderation here, but I hadn’t experienced it until yesterday, until my comment linking to an article about caffeine on the Better Health Channel appeared then disappeared.

    It does seem very strange that Watkin Tench can post a gruesome picture of decapitated heads, as you say with no trigger warning, but an innocuous link to an article about caffeine on a department of health website is removed.

  76. August 1st, 2014 at 08:13 | #76

    @Julie Thomas
    Thanks Julie. In seriousness, I think the problem is not just that I am a bit outspoken or tactless sometimes – though I know I can be – but also that pointing out the taken for granted is often considered bad manners (emperor’s new clothes fable).

    Which makes Fran’s comments about etiquette a bit difficult on blogs. I was in the precise situation Fran uses as a metaphor the other day – I was having dinner in someone’s home and the conversation took a turn that I as a feminist really didn’t like. There were all sorts of good reasons for me to leave early, so I bit my tongue and was polite. However, had in had more time, and had I drunk two glasses of wine instead of half a glass, I might have challenged them. The friendship involved is very longstanding, so it might have all been friendly in the end, but I also might have offended them.

    My guess is that our host, professor Quiggin, doesn’t actually want us to be so polite that we avoid all controversial subjects.

    @Watkin Tench
    Speaking of being offended, I have a Muslim son-in-law, and I am pretty concerned about the tone of some of your comments. What are you actually saying about Muslims? Do you realise that some of the allegations made about the white invaders of Australia are just as bad or worse?

  77. August 1st, 2014 at 08:14 | #77

    Sorry second sentence in second paragraph above should read “However, had I had more time …”

  78. J-D
    August 1st, 2014 at 08:40 | #78

    @Watkin Tench

    The answer to the question ‘what is the fraction of terrorist attacks that are perpetrated by Muslims?’ is of less significance than the answer to the question ‘what fraction of Muslims have been involved in the perpetration of terrorist attacks?’ To an order of magnitude, my first guess at an answer would be one in one hundred thousand. If one in every hundred thousand Muslims has been involved in the perpetration of terrorist attacks, that is nowhere near adequate justification for a general ban on Muslim immigration. If the figure were, say, nine in ten, I suppose my answer might be different — but clearly that’s not the case.

  79. Ikonoclast
    August 1st, 2014 at 08:54 | #79

    Watkin Tench does not understand that much non-state terrorist activity is a response by people to being attacked by other states. As a first step, we (the West) should stop attacking, bombing and drone striking people in the Middle East, North Africa and Pakistan. All of this is state sponsored terrorism carried out by our own states. We should demand this cease as the first big step in stopping deaths from terrorism world wide.

    I would also like to point out how hysterically absurd Watkin Tench is about the danger of terrorism in the West.

    “Comparing US CDC (mortality) numbers to terrorism deaths shows:

    – You are 35,079 times more likely to die from heart disease than from a terrorist attack.

    – You are 33,842 times more likely to die from cancer than from a terrorist attack.

    – You are 5,882 times more likely to die from medical error than a terrorist attack.

    – You are 4,706 times more likely to drink yourself to death than die from a terrorist attack.

    – You are 1,904 times more likely to die from a car accident than from a terrorist attack.”

    – from the washingtonsblog.

    This presumes “you” to be an “average” US citizen in every way.

  80. John Quiggin
    August 1st, 2014 at 10:55 | #80

    @Val

    These outcomes are the result of automoderation, over which I have no control, and which I don’t understand, except to say that links are likely to trigger it, as are words the kind of products sold by spammers. Amusingly, the word so-c*alis-m used to trigger it, because the central string is the name of a pharmaceutical product.

    My own moderation efforts are bit erratic – I do this in my spare time, so I miss some things, often coming in only when they are already out of hand. And, of course, I’m human and variable (not the automod robot is any better).

  81. Fran Barlow
    August 1st, 2014 at 15:32 | #81

    @Val

    Which makes Fran’s comments about etiquette a bit difficult on blogs. I was in the precise situation Fran uses as a metaphor the other day – I was having dinner in someone’s home and the conversation took a turn that I as a feminist really didn’t like. There were all sorts of good reasons for me to leave early, so I bit my tongue and was polite. However, had I had more time, and had I drunk two glasses of wine instead of half a glass, I might have challenged them. The friendship involved is very longstanding, so it might have all been friendly in the end, but I also might have offended them.

    There’s no good general rule on this. You need to treat it as a risk trade — weighing the important of the controversial challenge you might raise against the costs of the distress you can reasonably anticipate. You might approach the subject delicately, perhaps in a Socratic manner, in which, rather than challenging their claims directly, you tease out the logic and sweep of what they are claiming.

    Sometimes this is the best way to explore matters, particularly with those you regard as longstanding friends and who, presumably, you regard as ethical, thoughtful folk who would speak in good faith to a matter they might see as of concern to you. Sometimes that approach can clarify misunderstandings you had entertained, foreclosing the need to bite your tongue. Equally, it’s possible that they will grasp the problems you’ve identitified and begin to see it more from your perspective in circumstances where they don’t feel so defensive and painted into a cultural corner.

    Even if neither of these things occurs, you will at least have a better foundation for deciding where you’d prefer to take risks in challenging directly or continuing to bite your tongue.

    At least, that’s how I often approach matters in such settings.

  82. Fran Barlow
    August 1st, 2014 at 15:33 | #82

    oops:

    weighing the importance of the …

  83. Watkin Tench
    August 1st, 2014 at 17:55 | #83

    Nevil Kingston-Brown,

    You’ve missed the point entirely. My point was restricted to the peculiar and unwarranted fascination with the 0.01% synthetic pesticide residue and the Sgt Schultz “I see nothing!” attitude to 99.99% of pesticides that are a natural part of our fruit and veg.

    You might like to read this to gain a better understanding.

    As the above article states, many of our staple fruit and veg would be pulled off the shelves if they were assessed in the same way as synthetic products.

    The synthetic/natural apartheid system is a product of Green Left ideology, the type of ideology that idealises pre-industrial food production. It has nothing to do with reality or science.

    BTW, the study you cite is a stand alone epidemiological study. Such studies are notorious for producing bizarre results and generally don’t carry much weight until they are backed up by further studies.

  84. Donald Oats
    August 2nd, 2014 at 12:22 | #84

    Just after 9/11, plenty of people warned that “enhanced interrogation techniques” were tantamount to torture, waterboarding being the stand-out example (although most people didn’t appreciate at the time just how bad it is); now, we finally have an admission that the CIA crossed a line and tortured some folks. Plenty of experts warned that torture would seldom yield any intel, and forget about the “terrorist who knows about the location of the ticking time bomb” scenario so often paraded as a valid reason for such extreme techniques of interrogation. Given that some of these techniques go on for days and weeks, the ticking time bomb scenario diminishes in validity; fantasy, even.

    Unfortunately, the whole panoply of excuses for torture are being trotted out and aired, as if this is some kind of defence. Even the “we didn’t know (it was torture) at the time” excuse has popped up here and there. The worst protective defence of all is the “they are patriots” also gets an airing.

  85. Julie Thomas
    August 2nd, 2014 at 12:33 | #85

    @Watkin Tench

    This is just nonsense: “The synthetic/natural apartheid system is a product of Green Left ideology, the type of ideology that idealises pre-industrial food production. It has nothing to do with reality or science.”

    Really Watkins you just made that up, didn’t you? The irrational thinking that leads some people to worry about not natural things is due to human nature not to the devil lefties. People have always harked back to the past for some direction to take when uncertain about the future.

    I think it is called conservatism.

  86. Megan
    August 2nd, 2014 at 12:55 | #86

    @Donald Oats

    And Obama is quoted as saying of the torturers that “we shouldn’t judge them too harshly”.

    Torturers and murderers (including Obama with his “Tuesday Kill Lists”) should be judged as harshly as possible – i.e. condemned absolutely.

  87. alfred venison
    August 3rd, 2014 at 10:28 | #87

    when people hark to the past for some direction to take when uncertain about the future has also been called nationalism. -a.v.

  88. August 3rd, 2014 at 10:31 | #88

    @John Quiggin
    Thanks ProfQ. I realised afterwards that my comment fitted a typical pattern of spam: brief comment blah blah website link (usually irrelevant, though not in this case) so not surprising it got picked up by auto-mod.

    One of my later comments also was held up briefly, can’t work out what set that off, maybe it was “M-slim”? A strange thing that happens sometimes on this site is that, when it asks me to log in again after my iPad has been shut down, it also sometimes asks me to go through the test for being a human, copying letters and numbers, which are almost invariably extremely difficult to read on an iPad. That in turn sometimes sets off odd things like a “flare”. Anyway I usually end up getting through. It’s not serious but just interesting, I guess.

  89. August 3rd, 2014 at 10:42 | #89

    @alfred venison
    However if you don’t accept the progressive view of history (the march of progress), you might accept that some things were actually better in the past. For example, income inequality in many countries decreased after the Second World War until about the 1980s, since when it has been rising.

    Similarly, human beings used to live in a way that was compatible with a stable eco- system. Now we are destroying it.

    The trick is to work out what is actually better now, and combine it with what was actually better in the past. If I may do a little self promotion, I did a blog post on a very similar topic just after I’d been to Kenya, thinking about life in rich and poor countries.

  90. August 3rd, 2014 at 10:44 | #90

    Ha now have another post in moderation (reply to Alfred) – guess it’s the link.

  91. alfred venison
    August 3rd, 2014 at 10:55 | #91

    even an internal link with the wrong word. irony is that “samsung double door refrigerator price in kolkata” got a comment with link posted on the Stafford by-election thread and he really is spam. 😉 have a great day. -a.v.

  92. Collin Street
    August 3rd, 2014 at 11:30 | #92

    As I understand it, Obama’s background is as a “community organiser”, which largely means bringing people together, getting them each to admit to themselves what they did wrong^W^Wshould have done differently, and agreeing to work together see each others perspectives and sing kumbayah around the fireplace.

    Which I think you see reflected in his attitude and approach to problem-solving.

    It’s the right approach… for someone with no effective coercive power. Is the president of the US in that sort of position? quite possibly, yes: the US’s structural problems are pretty severe.

  93. J-D
    August 4th, 2014 at 08:15 | #93

    @Collin Street

    Saul Alinsky is credited with coining the expression ‘community organizer’ and is still quoted by organizers. Somebody who wrote ‘The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition’ and ‘In war, the end justifies almost any means’ probably didn’t have much time for singing Kumbayah.

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