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Monday Message Board

April 3rd, 2017

Another Monday Message Board. Post comments on any topic. Civil discussion and no coarse language please. Side discussions and idees fixes to the sandpits, please.

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  1. Frank Carter
    April 3rd, 2017 at 14:38 | #1

    Great to see that bigot Ayaan Hirsi Ali has had to cancel her tour of Australia.

  2. Ikonoclast
    April 3rd, 2017 at 15:18 | #2

    @Frank Carter

    Why is she a bigot? Who is she bigoted against? I am not being a smart alec. I genuinely know very little about her. You might need to back up your claim that she is a bigot with some facts.

    On the other hand, if someone said me that Pauline Hanson was a bigot I would agree. I know enough about her and her views to agree with such a statement.

  3. Andrew
    April 3rd, 2017 at 15:49 | #3

    @Frank Carter
    I take it that you disagree with some of her positions

  4. Frank Carter
    April 3rd, 2017 at 16:00 | #4

    @Ikonoclast
    If you know very little about her, use Google.

  5. Frank Carter
    April 3rd, 2017 at 16:01 | #5

    @Andrew
    It’s her unreasoning hatred of the religion of Mohammed that I find bigoted. She lacks respect.

  6. chrisl
    April 3rd, 2017 at 16:39 | #6

    The Somali-born Dutch-American activist, author, and former politician, is an outspoken opponent of female genital mutilation.
    And a bigot!

  7. chrisl
    April 3rd, 2017 at 16:50 | #7

    Hirsi is in all real respects a leftie, a feminist and an athiest but still she must not speak.

  8. Lt. Fred
    April 3rd, 2017 at 17:05 | #8

    She’s got a very nice gig within the Islamophobia industry forever, and all she had to do was lie about her past, join the Dutch Nazi party and write a book or two (and have black skin).

  9. Sunshine
    April 3rd, 2017 at 18:41 | #9

    I read a bit about her on the Guardian and couldn’t work out if she is having a go at Islam or just radical Islam . I think she may slip between the two . Commonly done. I am wary of any religion. When trying to soften an attack on Islam in general, because of a lack of criticism of other religions by the speaker, I always end up feeling like I am defending FGM or veils etc.

  10. Andrew
    April 3rd, 2017 at 19:36 | #10

    @Frank Carter
    There are great many critics of Christianity (as doctrine or as collection of related cultural practices) that don’t get labeled as bigots. Surely somebody who has experienced growing up within a religion should be listened carefully to. Disagree with her if you are inclined but please don’t throw around mud.

  11. Disenfranchised
    April 3rd, 2017 at 20:23 | #11

    Frank Carter could you give us some examples of her “unreasoning hatred of the religion of Mohammed.” Having been raised a Muslim she probably does have some insights. I have found none of the “unreasoning hatred” you speak of in two of her books, or in her media appearances. The real bigots are those who wish or threaten her harm.

  12. Ikonoclast
    April 3rd, 2017 at 20:40 | #12

    @Frank Carter

    I did. I found nothing reputable and documented which indicated she was a bigot but maybe I didn’t look far enough I don’t know.

    As for her “unreasoning hatred of the religion of Mohammed”, I did not see this on a short survey. I saw a rejection of monotheism. She is an atheist it seems. I assume she would advance a reasoned rejection of all the variants of monotheism. Monotheists in the main tend to be dogmatic and to hold, generally, that they have exclusive access to what is “True” (from their particular dogmatic works) and that everyone else is wrong. Such a position deserves tolerance and understanding, if and only if it remains peaceable to others. It never deserves respect. I tolerate and understand religious people. I don’t respect their dogmas in the slightest.

  13. Svante
    April 3rd, 2017 at 23:38 | #13

    @Frank Carter
    “She lacks respect.”

    No, she lacks submission, is submislamsion free. Respect is a thing earned.

  14. J-D
    April 4th, 2017 at 06:40 | #14

    Bigotry involves negative reactions (hostility, hatred, contempt, malice, disrespect) to people. Negative reactions to an idea, no matter how little justified, don’t constitute bigotry. When Ikonoclast asked who Ayaan Hirsi Ali is bigoted against, that was the right sort of question. ‘Muslims’ might be an answer to that question, but it’s not the answer that was given. ‘It’s her unreasoning hatred of the religion of Mohammed that I find bigoted’ doesn’t answer Ikonoclast’s question. ‘The religion of Mohammed’ is not a who.

  15. Frank Carter
    April 4th, 2017 at 08:41 | #15

    I hadn’t been to this site for quite a while before I made my comment yesterday. I didn’t realise it had morphed into a right-wing blog, something similar to Bolt.

  16. hc
    April 4th, 2017 at 11:01 | #16

    Disgraceful bigotry towards Hirsi Ali. The left reveals its totalitarian backbone.

  17. John Quiggin
    April 4th, 2017 at 12:27 | #17

    So, Frank Carter takes a thread with 15 comments (quite a few by him) as proof that this is a right wing blog akin to Bolt’s, while hc takes the same thread as proof that it represents the totalitarian backbone of the left (whatever that means).

    For the record, I’ll restate my position from the previous thread, which seems to be shared by most commenters other than the two I’ve mentioned.

    Criticism of religion in general, or any particular religion, is entirely legitimate. Attacking individuals or groups of people on the basis of their religion is not. When (as is usually the case) the religion is closely identified with a particular ethnic group or groups, attacking its followers as a group is a form of racism.

    Whether that view makes me a rightwing Bolt fan or one of the vertebraes of left totalitarianism, I’ll leave to others to judge.

  18. Collin Street
    April 4th, 2017 at 20:22 | #18

    I read a bit about her on the Guardian and couldn’t work out if she is having a go at Islam or just radical Islam .

    If you can’t tell which… you can tell which.

  19. hc
    April 4th, 2017 at 20:26 | #19

    I wasn’t referring specifically to you JQ or to those posting on this thread – though I certainly disagree strongly with Frank Carter. I was attacking the general attempt by the left to limit Ali’s freedom of speech. I have read a few of her books. They are well-argued and she certainly has a viewpoint that deserves respect. For one thing she has practical experience of Islam. Can I ask in your terms JQ what is Ali doing that is so sinful. She criticises Islam which is a religion and it would be a bit rich to accuse her of racism since she criticises, in part, her own race. Criticising the brand of Islam that is closely identified wioth the people of Saudi Arabia is not racism at all.

    At core the left does comprise a lot of bigotry – it has a “totalitarian backbone”. Free speech is respected provided it reflects the left’s perspectives. Those on the right are shouted down on university campuses and prevented from speaking. Ali is condemned for making strong criticisms of Islam.

  20. chrisl
    April 4th, 2017 at 20:40 | #20

    Well argued hc

  21. J-D
    April 4th, 2017 at 20:47 | #21

    @hc

    I was attacking the general attempt by the left to limit Ali’s freedom of speech.

    I am not familiar with the general attempt you refer to. Can you direct my attention to any particular examples?

    Those on the right are shouted down on university campuses and prevented from speaking.

    I don’t know which people on the right you’re referring to, or how it is that they are being shouted down or prevented from speaking; can you direct my attention to any of the instances you have in mind?

    Ali is condemned for making strong criticisms of Islam.

    Do you have a reason why she should not be? If you are calling for people not to condemn other people, aren’t you in effect calling for them to limit their freedom of speech?

  22. rog
    April 4th, 2017 at 21:06 | #22

    Dearie me.

    The petition criticising Ali was on the basis that Ali is using acts of violence against women to condemn religion when it is misogyny against women of all religions that should be condemned. Stirring up hatred against muslims does not address misogyny.

    The petitioners also made aware of Ali’s demonstrated deception to Dutch authorities saying that her obvious lack of credibility disqualifies her from being an authorative representative on Islam and women.

  23. Frank Carter
    April 4th, 2017 at 21:33 | #23

    @rog
    At last a commenter on this blog who can see through Ali. This woman uses her race to try and excuse herself for making racist comments against Muslims. I’m amazed that other commenters (including JQ) can’t see this.

    Is “hc” Harry Clarke? Surely not! Harry has been a sensible blogger since the days when he supported the far right Howard government. Hopefully he hasn’t turned full circle back to the fascist Right?

  24. Tim Macknay
    April 4th, 2017 at 22:10 | #24

    I’m dubious of the value of using extremely broad and vague terms like “the left” in this context. It is indeed a shame that Hirsi Ali apparently felt she could not appear in Australia because of security concerns. However, it is not at all clear that those security concerns arose because of “the left”. The media reports were not specific, but I am inclined to suspect that security threats to Hirsi Ali were likely to have been due to Islamic extremists, rather than “the left”. I understand that there was some sort of petition signed by Muslim women that objected to her visit, which can be thought of as opposing her freedom of speech. However, again, it is not at all clear that the women who signed the petition were “the left”, nor is there, IMHO, a particularly strong reason to think so.

    It is certainly true that there are some campus activists, who are left-wing, who take a particular approach to what they see as inappropriate approaches to issues of race, gender and other identity categories that is quite inimical to free speech. However, to treat extremists of that kind as representative of “the left” with respect to free speech is IMHO no more reasonable than to treat fringe groups like the “Australian Liberty Alliance” or “Catch the Fire Ministries” as representative of “the right” with respect to racial and religious tolerance.

  25. J-D
    April 4th, 2017 at 22:35 | #25

    @Tim Macknay

    It is certainly true that there are some campus activists, who are left-wing, who take a particular approach to what they see as inappropriate approaches to issues of race, gender and other identity categories that is quite inimical to free speech.

    I don’t know which particular approach you are referring to; can you elucidate?

  26. Tim Macknay
    April 4th, 2017 at 23:26 | #26

    @J-D
    I was thinking of ‘no platform’. I acknowledge, however, that advocates of the ‘no platform’ approach take the view that it is not an interference with free speech. Despite that, I think it’s difficult to dispute that the approach does inhibit free speech on university campuses, even if not in society at large. My words ‘It is certainly true that’ might be construed as an overstatement. It is my opinion that ‘no-platforming’ is inimical to free speech. Advocates of the approach don’t share that view.

  27. rog
    April 5th, 2017 at 05:12 | #27

    Bloomberg pours cold water onto coal and Adani. If BHPs superior Mt Arthur can’t make money how can Adani?

    https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2017-04-02/coal-s-dirty-australian-secret-it-s-not-coming-back

  28. J-D
    April 5th, 2017 at 07:26 | #28

    @Tim Macknay

    I’m afraid I don’t understand clearly what you mean by ‘no-platforming’.

  29. David Allen
    April 5th, 2017 at 11:12 | #29

    Here’s a jolly-jape. Following the lashing of Qld & NSW by storms again I wonder which Australian city will be the first to be abandoned due to climate change? (by city, let’s say 10,000+ pop today)
    It’s all “we can rebuild”, “lets all muck in” etc., at the moment but there will come a time when one disaster too many will occur over a short interval and a place that seemed permanent will fade away. With the insurance industry correctly applying very large premiums to asset insurance in high risk areas the cost of rebuilding has to come from local pockets. Not sustainable.
    Candidates: Cities near rivers in high rainfall areas, low-lying cities near the coast, inland cities far from reliable food & water.

  30. Tim Macknay
    April 5th, 2017 at 11:33 | #30

    @J-D
    The term refers to the practice, which I understand has been instituted by student unions on some university campuses in the UK, of refusing permission and/or denying access to speak on campuses to persons who are deemed objectionable. I believe the concept, and the term “no platform”, originated with a policy established by the British National Union of Students in the 1970s to prevent the far right from organising on university campuses and posing a threat to students. It has since been employed to prevent a wider range of people from speaking on campuses, on a variety of pretexts. I am not aware of any instances of “no platforming” having been used on campuses in Australia. I hope that is a sufficient explanation.

  31. rog
    April 5th, 2017 at 12:08 | #31

    Jamie Dimon counts the cost, to the US, of wars, costly healthcare and education, excessive incarceration.

    https://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/investor-relations/document/ar2016-ceolettershareholders.pdf

  32. Ikonoclast
    April 5th, 2017 at 12:26 | #32

    Some theocratic apologists for religion and religionism seem to want to stop criticism of all religion(s) and especially their religion. They think certain beliefs are above criticism and should be “respected” no matter how much or how little empirical evidence supports these beliefs and no matter how much those beliefs themselves might promote bigotry, intolerance and even violence. Overall, beliefs as such (be they religious, ideological or other) are accorded far too much credence and respect by too many. Beliefs are just that. They are beliefs; apriori judgements or positions and/or positions held according to dogma and without supporting empirical evidence. I have made at least several such mistakes myself, holding priors (not necessarily religious priors) without evidence. I try to allow myself to be corrected by facts demonstrated or recorded in scientifically, reputable and trust-worthy sources.

    But certain levels of blind, dogmatic belief allow of no correction, allow no impact from empirical facts and often, at this level of dogmatism, seek to impose themselves on others by indoctrination and even force. Belief systems (religious, ideological or other) reaching this level of dogmatism, often shading into fanaticism and extremism, must be condemned and opposed in the strongest possible peaceable (so far as possible) and enlightened ways.

    To put the above in context, I have always called for, on this blog and elsewhere, a complete cessation of Western and Imperialist attacks on Middle Eastern, North African, Arabic, Islamic and other peoples. The West has massacred and provoked these people terribly. Provoke and you get a reaction. If the provocation is extreme the reaction is extreme. That is a plain fact. The modern extremism which has arisen in this context has been provoked, largely, by the West. The West should adopt a position of non-intervention, non-harm to all those peoples named above. What positive assistance policies are required above and beyond that fundamental requirement, I leave to others to outline if they wish.

  33. J-D
    April 5th, 2017 at 13:57 | #33

    @Tim Macknay

    If that’s what you mean, I don’t understand what your problem with it is. It is not the case — surely you are not saying that it is the case — that everybody who wants to get an invitation from a student union to speak on a university campus should be given one. Surely a student union should have the liberty to invite the speakers it wants to invite and not to invite the speakers it doesn’t want to invite?

  34. Tim Macknay
    April 5th, 2017 at 14:46 | #34

    @J-D
    I think the issue tends to arise more when a student union vetoes an invitation given by a student society that is affiliated with the union, rather than in the exercise of the union’s own discretion to issue invitations. It also depends, I think, on the extent to which one considers that universities should be places where discussion and debate is fostered, even of controversial topics, and how this goal is balanced against other concerns, such as student welfare. Personally, I think that universities should be places where discussion and debate occurs, and that student unions ought to support such discussion and debate by not applying too-censorious approaches to the kind of speakers and topics who are invited to campuses. Others may disagree with this view.

  35. J-D
    April 5th, 2017 at 16:02 | #35

    @Tim Macknay
    I think we are in agreement that student unions should not apply ‘too-censorious approaches to the kind of speakers and topics who are invited to campuses’, but the role there of the modifier ‘too’ is critical and leads inescapably to the question ‘How censorious is too censorious?’ For example, if a student union has a policy that it will not invite any advocates of genocide to give speeches, and that no societies affiliated to the union will be allowed to invite any advocates of genocide to give speeches, I don’t think that’s too censorious. Do you think that’s too censorious? What examples do you have in mind of invitations to speak being refused which you consider too censorious?

  36. Collin Street
    April 5th, 2017 at 19:31 | #36

    There are many things I have no time for, but one of them is the idea that it’s useful to consider the impact of barriers to speech without regard to the content or the impact of the speech under consideration.

  37. Julie Thomas
    April 6th, 2017 at 07:11 | #37

    hc can you elaborate on how the left reveals its totalitarian backbone and the general attempt by the left to limit Ali’s freedom of speech? Do you have any links to these leftist?

    As far as I can tell, the general threats to her safety come from radical Islamists who are surely not leftists? And according to the RN program The Religion and Ethics Report broadcast last night, the specific incident that motivated her to cancel this particular visit was a petition by Muslim women.

    “About 400 Muslim women signed an online petition opposing her visit. They said their views reflected, “the huge diversity of opinion among Australian Muslim women.”

    “The spokesperson for the group is Melbourne businesswoman Hanna Assafiri” She gave a rather ’emotional’ and difficult to listen to interview about Ayaan Hirsi Ali and if she was happy that she had called off her tour in this program.

    I didn’t get the idea that this person was particularly leftist either.

  38. Tim Macknay
    April 6th, 2017 at 12:04 | #38

    @J-D
    Yes, I agree that the modifier ‘too’ is significant and I confess I find it difficult to identify a formula or heuristic that could be applied consistently to determine when a decision is ‘too’ censorious.

    In thinking of examples I regard as ‘too censorious’, I thought it would be appropriate to re-examine the examples and confirm that my recollection of them was accurate. The result of this was interesting, as it turns out that the examples that sprang to mind were actually examples where a ‘no platform’ approach was not successfully applied. This leads me to think that the ‘no platform’ approach has less impact on freedom of speech on university campuses than my earlier impression of it.

    The examples I was thinking of were, first, a decision by the student union of the University of Sheffield to prevent Julian Assange from speaking on campus (by teleconference). The basis for the refusal, as I understand it, was that, as Assange was (and remains) under suspicion for sexual offences in Sweden, allowing him to speak might be construed as endorsement of sexual offending.

    The other example that occurred to me was a decision by the student union of Warwick University to prevent Maryam Namazie from speaking, on the grounds that she was too inflammatory. Namazie is a former Muslim and a campaigner for secularism.

    In both cases, however, the student union’s initial decision was later reversed, and the speakers did end up addressing an audience on campus.

    I agree that a policy preventing advocates of genocide from speaking on campus would not be too censorious.

  39. Tim Macknay
    April 6th, 2017 at 12:07 | #39

    @Julie Thomas
    Yes, there seems to be no evidence at all that “the left” was involved in the petition against Hirsi Ali, or the security concerns that apparently led her to cancel the visit.

  40. Julie Thomas
    April 7th, 2017 at 16:16 | #40

    Having heard more about the things that Hirsi Ali has said, I think she may have some problems thinking rationally about issues and perhaps has some difficulty restraining herself from saying silly, ignorant and irrational things. Given her experiences this is not surprising.

    I read that she has said that white feminists seem to think that only white men are capable of evil and refuse to see what is done in other cultures. I’m not offended by this mis-characterisation of the way that white feminists think about ‘evil’ but it seems clear that what she says needs to be taken with some degree of caution and it would be a good idea for her to make some effort to understand what ‘white feminists’ do think.

    I can see why right wing people choose to ‘like’ and defend some of the things she says and are able to ignore the other things she says she stands for that would not be to their liking.

  41. rog
    April 7th, 2017 at 16:58 | #41

    @Julie Thomas She seems to have become a symbol of the right and seems to be able to command their fury at will. The comments on her cancelled Australia trip seem to support my uneasiness that The Crusades and Christian Holy War is entering yet another phase.

  42. Julie Thomas
    April 7th, 2017 at 20:14 | #42

    I don’t know about another religious war but it’s a bit sad and reassuring in a way, how willing right wing people – conservatives and libertarians – are to be so indiscriminate in the people they lionise.
    Mark Latham is another of these people who really don’t seem capable of understanding how lacking in integrity and coherence their behaviour is, and are able to say things that are incredibly stupid without any sense of how ludicrous they are. Latham is actually claiming to be a social democrat!!

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