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	<title>Comments on: Groan</title>
	<atom:link href="http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/</link>
	<description>Commentary on Australian &#38; world events from a social-democratic perspective</description>
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		<title>By: Francis Xavier Holden</title>
		<link>http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/comment-page-2/#comment-212312</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Xavier Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 09:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/#comment-212312</guid>
		<description>obs - you forgot - initially indicate you might want &quot;finance&quot; then when all prices confirmed say - any discount for cash buddy? [a nice old fashioned vic market approach is very satisfying - pull roll of readies out of pocket]

Always sets them on back foot as they will give better deals if they think they will be gouging you on finance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>obs &#8211; you forgot &#8211; initially indicate you might want &#8220;finance&#8221; then when all prices confirmed say &#8211; any discount for cash buddy? [a nice old fashioned vic market approach is very satisfying - pull roll of readies out of pocket]</p>
<p>Always sets them on back foot as they will give better deals if they think they will be gouging you on finance.</p>
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		<title>By: Francis Xavier Holden</title>
		<link>http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/comment-page-2/#comment-212309</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Xavier Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 09:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/#comment-212309</guid>
		<description>observa - your are right about not worrying about $100 or so- chicken feed. I drop a few hundred not to deal with some pricks at all.

I paya premium to have servicing close by - easiest to drop in a say - fix this -  rather than ring up and book in. No point saving $400 if you have to drive across town in traffic to get stuff worked out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>observa &#8211; your are right about not worrying about $100 or so- chicken feed. I drop a few hundred not to deal with some pricks at all.</p>
<p>I paya premium to have servicing close by &#8211; easiest to drop in a say &#8211; fix this &#8211;  rather than ring up and book in. No point saving $400 if you have to drive across town in traffic to get stuff worked out.</p>
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		<title>By: Francis Xavier Holden</title>
		<link>http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/comment-page-2/#comment-212308</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Xavier Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 09:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/#comment-212308</guid>
		<description>observa - spot(ish) on. I see your schtick isn&#039;t far from mine on buying in general.

My newest car is a nice black 110,00k Mitsubishi Verada 2001 with the lot, leather, towbar etc. for $8,000. Suits me.

Ms Fx is sticking with her old Volvo. Local ofspring with his 96 Commodore Acclaim.

We don&#039;t buy new cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>observa &#8211; spot(ish) on. I see your schtick isn&#8217;t far from mine on buying in general.</p>
<p>My newest car is a nice black 110,00k Mitsubishi Verada 2001 with the lot, leather, towbar etc. for $8,000. Suits me.</p>
<p>Ms Fx is sticking with her old Volvo. Local ofspring with his 96 Commodore Acclaim.</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t buy new cars.</p>
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		<title>By: El Mono</title>
		<link>http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/comment-page-2/#comment-212289</link>
		<dc:creator>El Mono</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 02:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/#comment-212289</guid>
		<description>I can see how a tax on a cars on fuel efficiency woud damage our car makes I am not sure that reoving the tariff on hybreds would be so sccessful in moving people to hybred cars that it would destroy australias petrol only cars. I am hwoever now thinking that remving the tariff on hybreds and highly effcient cars may discourage Austrlaian makers from making there own hybred/highky efficient models.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can see how a tax on a cars on fuel efficiency woud damage our car makes I am not sure that reoving the tariff on hybreds would be so sccessful in moving people to hybred cars that it would destroy australias petrol only cars. I am hwoever now thinking that remving the tariff on hybreds and highly effcient cars may discourage Austrlaian makers from making there own hybred/highky efficient models.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Gould</title>
		<link>http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/comment-page-2/#comment-212282</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Gould</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 00:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/#comment-212282</guid>
		<description>&quot;It is interesting that water consumption has been reduced on a voluntary basis, very successfully, but people seem to think that a very very large tax is required for petrol.&quot;

I&#039;ve yet to see any evidence that there&#039;s been any public campaign urging people to cut their car use on the scale of the water-saving campaign here in Brisbane.

Every night, dam levels were reported on the news. Every time you walked through the Queen Street mall there were massive billboards urging people to cut their usage with scary graphics of how low the dams were.

We&#039;re STILL getting major news coverage each month when the usage figures come out or the dam levels are updated.

When we get daily reports on fuel sales and the government offering subsidies for engine tune-ups and bicycle purchases we might see movement on fuel use.

Let&#039;s face it, assume there was a war tomorrow and Australia&#039;s petrol imports were severely disrupted, does anyone doubt we could cut fuel use drastically?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It is interesting that water consumption has been reduced on a voluntary basis, very successfully, but people seem to think that a very very large tax is required for petrol.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve yet to see any evidence that there&#8217;s been any public campaign urging people to cut their car use on the scale of the water-saving campaign here in Brisbane.</p>
<p>Every night, dam levels were reported on the news. Every time you walked through the Queen Street mall there were massive billboards urging people to cut their usage with scary graphics of how low the dams were.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re STILL getting major news coverage each month when the usage figures come out or the dam levels are updated.</p>
<p>When we get daily reports on fuel sales and the government offering subsidies for engine tune-ups and bicycle purchases we might see movement on fuel use.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s face it, assume there was a war tomorrow and Australia&#8217;s petrol imports were severely disrupted, does anyone doubt we could cut fuel use drastically?</p>
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		<title>By: wizofaus</title>
		<link>http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/comment-page-2/#comment-212276</link>
		<dc:creator>wizofaus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 23:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/#comment-212276</guid>
		<description>El Mono - both.  And note I don&#039;t particularly think killing the Australian car manufacturing industry is a bad thing, but ideally we should allow it to die out slowly, giving workers the time to retrain or retire out the business.

Realistically however, governments (especially the ALP) are going to try to keep it alive no matter what.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>El Mono &#8211; both.  And note I don&#8217;t particularly think killing the Australian car manufacturing industry is a bad thing, but ideally we should allow it to die out slowly, giving workers the time to retrain or retire out the business.</p>
<p>Realistically however, governments (especially the ALP) are going to try to keep it alive no matter what.</p>
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		<title>By: observa</title>
		<link>http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/comment-page-2/#comment-212274</link>
		<dc:creator>observa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 23:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/#comment-212274</guid>
		<description>Alright Francis. Just this once for all you slowpokes in the public circus and seeing how you all want to save the planet, I&#039;ll get you up to pace on buying new shopping trolleys and give you a modest chance with all those slick, aspiring, young Observas. 
Stick to the Jap offerings, preferably 4 door autos, because although you pay considerably more than 2 door manuals, that&#039;s what the ladies like and that&#039;s your secondhand market too. Then you need that 5yr/100K factory warranty to chop it in after 4 years max (or 80K max), offering the dealer and his buyer that comfy safety net. Although you pay top dollar for dealer servicing, do it religiously because then there&#039;s no argument with warranty, second owners like Francis love those dealer service stamps and you get a warm fuzzy out of paying their &#039;environmental fee&#039; to boot. Then do some homework on Redbook as to trade-in price range and what&#039;s around new and then it&#039;s off to the showrooms with the missus to play good cop bad cop. Let her have her head and don&#039;t fuss about giving your contact number to your new friends for life. This is always Feb/March remember when they&#039;re trying to runout last years compliance plates, loading on the extras and extended factory warranty from 3 up to 5yrs. Demos are OK. The bad cop is not sentimental remember? Don&#039;t wear anything but factory warranty here and Mitsubishi always offer 5 yr/100K. Remind Toyota people, etc of that. Also you&#039;re not going to be swayed into all that extra shine car care, window tint, Scotchguard upholstery, etc by the mandatory cutie, as she won&#039;t be oozing around to get you any firmer errâ€¦trade-in in 4 years time. Confirm that fact with a glance at the good cop turned bad cop suddenly on your elbow, although this scene is always at actual deal time. Good cop always picks the car and colour (providing you fit in it), while the bad cop does the homework and sums. Emphatically tell each apprentice Observa you&#039;re definitely buying in the next week or so (if not you shouldn&#039;t be there dummy) but naturally your ultimate choice of car and dealer depends on the good cop and drive away changeover price. Now you&#039;ve really pushed the big go button he&#039;s going to lay it on you as to what you want for your trade-in...hmmm? NEVER, EVER give a figure or you&#039;re cooked sonny. Mr deadpan, mature Observa look, straight between pale imitation&#039;s eyes and something like- &#039;Well naturally I wouldn&#039;t mind a straight swap but I suppose you might have something a little less in mindâ€¦hmmm?&#039; raising eyebrow quizzically without batting an eyelid. This is always High Noon stuff for Wyatt Earp and will occur over and over until you settle on the car and likely dealer. Now no matter how much good cop is interested in a particular car along the way, she&#039;s drilled to want to look at that other make before making up her mind. If she forgets in the heat of battle you step in emphatically with that drill, no ifs, buts or maybes. First you agree on the particular car at home together and only then is it deal time. By this time you have a good idea of maxish trade-in value and should have at least 2 dealers (3s a crowd really) chasing you for your ultimate choice. Politely tell other makers ringing (those contact details recall) good cop has made another choice of makes, end of story. Buy day and then back to those 2 short-listed dealers. (usually youâ€™ve discounted a third because they were lowish on the trade-in). Into dealer 1 and tell them you want to sign up with their brand that morning and can they give you their best C/O price there and then verbally and you are checking prices with 1 other competitor and best tender wins. No ifs, buts or maybes and you categorically guarantee you will not shop their confidential best price to you. By this time youâ€™re dealing with senior sales sharpening the pencil. Do the same with dealer 2 and then keep your word, even for $50 difference. Youâ€™re not talking telephone numbers with these low margin showroom fillers anyway. Sign with the best tender and courtesy call to the unsuccessful tender afterwards. Groundhog day in 4 years time</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alright Francis. Just this once for all you slowpokes in the public circus and seeing how you all want to save the planet, I&#8217;ll get you up to pace on buying new shopping trolleys and give you a modest chance with all those slick, aspiring, young Observas.<br />
Stick to the Jap offerings, preferably 4 door autos, because although you pay considerably more than 2 door manuals, that&#8217;s what the ladies like and that&#8217;s your secondhand market too. Then you need that 5yr/100K factory warranty to chop it in after 4 years max (or 80K max), offering the dealer and his buyer that comfy safety net. Although you pay top dollar for dealer servicing, do it religiously because then there&#8217;s no argument with warranty, second owners like Francis love those dealer service stamps and you get a warm fuzzy out of paying their &#8216;environmental fee&#8217; to boot. Then do some homework on Redbook as to trade-in price range and what&#8217;s around new and then it&#8217;s off to the showrooms with the missus to play good cop bad cop. Let her have her head and don&#8217;t fuss about giving your contact number to your new friends for life. This is always Feb/March remember when they&#8217;re trying to runout last years compliance plates, loading on the extras and extended factory warranty from 3 up to 5yrs. Demos are OK. The bad cop is not sentimental remember? Don&#8217;t wear anything but factory warranty here and Mitsubishi always offer 5 yr/100K. Remind Toyota people, etc of that. Also you&#8217;re not going to be swayed into all that extra shine car care, window tint, Scotchguard upholstery, etc by the mandatory cutie, as she won&#8217;t be oozing around to get you any firmer errâ€¦trade-in in 4 years time. Confirm that fact with a glance at the good cop turned bad cop suddenly on your elbow, although this scene is always at actual deal time. Good cop always picks the car and colour (providing you fit in it), while the bad cop does the homework and sums. Emphatically tell each apprentice Observa you&#8217;re definitely buying in the next week or so (if not you shouldn&#8217;t be there dummy) but naturally your ultimate choice of car and dealer depends on the good cop and drive away changeover price. Now you&#8217;ve really pushed the big go button he&#8217;s going to lay it on you as to what you want for your trade-in&#8230;hmmm? NEVER, EVER give a figure or you&#8217;re cooked sonny. Mr deadpan, mature Observa look, straight between pale imitation&#8217;s eyes and something like- &#8216;Well naturally I wouldn&#8217;t mind a straight swap but I suppose you might have something a little less in mindâ€¦hmmm?&#8217; raising eyebrow quizzically without batting an eyelid. This is always High Noon stuff for Wyatt Earp and will occur over and over until you settle on the car and likely dealer. Now no matter how much good cop is interested in a particular car along the way, she&#8217;s drilled to want to look at that other make before making up her mind. If she forgets in the heat of battle you step in emphatically with that drill, no ifs, buts or maybes. First you agree on the particular car at home together and only then is it deal time. By this time you have a good idea of maxish trade-in value and should have at least 2 dealers (3s a crowd really) chasing you for your ultimate choice. Politely tell other makers ringing (those contact details recall) good cop has made another choice of makes, end of story. Buy day and then back to those 2 short-listed dealers. (usually youâ€™ve discounted a third because they were lowish on the trade-in). Into dealer 1 and tell them you want to sign up with their brand that morning and can they give you their best C/O price there and then verbally and you are checking prices with 1 other competitor and best tender wins. No ifs, buts or maybes and you categorically guarantee you will not shop their confidential best price to you. By this time youâ€™re dealing with senior sales sharpening the pencil. Do the same with dealer 2 and then keep your word, even for $50 difference. Youâ€™re not talking telephone numbers with these low margin showroom fillers anyway. Sign with the best tender and courtesy call to the unsuccessful tender afterwards. Groundhog day in 4 years time</p>
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		<title>By: El Mono</title>
		<link>http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/comment-page-2/#comment-212257</link>
		<dc:creator>El Mono</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 14:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/#comment-212257</guid>
		<description>wizofaus- Are you refering to the taxing of cars based of fuel efficiency or removing tariffs on cars which austrlai currently does not produce (hybrids)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wizofaus- Are you refering to the taxing of cars based of fuel efficiency or removing tariffs on cars which austrlai currently does not produce (hybrids)</p>
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		<title>By: Socrates</title>
		<link>http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/comment-page-2/#comment-212255</link>
		<dc:creator>Socrates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 13:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/#comment-212255</guid>
		<description>Carbonsink

I share your concerns on both climate change and peak oil and sadly I must agree with your views on our greatly reducing demand from prices alone.  When you consider what people really pay for motoring with the combination of registration, insurance, depreciation and in capitals $15+/day for parking, travel demand being inelastic shouldn&#039;t come as a shock.  

The really effective policies to reduce urban commuting are usually things like capping parking supply in CBDs and increasing public transport.  There is no one policy that will get us close to reduction targets on transport.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carbonsink</p>
<p>I share your concerns on both climate change and peak oil and sadly I must agree with your views on our greatly reducing demand from prices alone.  When you consider what people really pay for motoring with the combination of registration, insurance, depreciation and in capitals $15+/day for parking, travel demand being inelastic shouldn&#8217;t come as a shock.  </p>
<p>The really effective policies to reduce urban commuting are usually things like capping parking supply in CBDs and increasing public transport.  There is no one policy that will get us close to reduction targets on transport.</p>
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		<title>By: observa</title>
		<link>http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/comment-page-2/#comment-212252</link>
		<dc:creator>observa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 12:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/26/groan/#comment-212252</guid>
		<description>Well whaddya know? John&#039;s spam filter apparently doesn&#039;t like Toyota&#039;s old model name for its new Yaris. Hence the split comment and E_cho.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well whaddya know? John&#8217;s spam filter apparently doesn&#8217;t like Toyota&#8217;s old model name for its new Yaris. Hence the split comment and E_cho.</p>
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