For the first (at least the first functioning) time on the new MT weblog, it’s time for Monday’s Message Board. Post comments on any topic (no coarse language and civilised discussion only please). I’m still interested in feedback on the new site, suggestions for additional features and so on.
Update Be sure to read Observa’s account of his family’s brush with paedophilia. It will help to inform discussion of this difficult problem.
John Quiggin 
Re new site.
Today, on a basic PIII running Win95, the stuff that should be in the right-hand side-panel is at the bottom of the page – using MSIE and Mozilla 1.3, both.
I suppose the elitists can see it perfectly on their government issue 17inch G4s, but there are a lot of plebs who are stuck with old kit, and a few cranks who will not use MSIE. Movable Type is probably working towards a vendor-independent engine, but keep reminding them, please!
It could have something to do with jre??
I’ve set the width of the main window back to 65%. I hope this will fix things.
I don’t recognise “jre” as an acronym
Looks fine in Mozilla…
Re: Money isn’t everything
The other day you wrote “money isn’t everything, and I think that Maslow’s hierarchy of needs is basically right – when you have enough money to meet your basic needs, you tend to focus more on emotional/self-actualisation needs and money is less relevant.”
Here’s a skeptical argument – emotional needs DO take over from material needs with rising affluence BUT money doesn’t become any less important.
Adam Smith argued (Theory of Moral Sentiments) that what people really want is to be noticed and admired by others. He wrote that even ordinary laborers had enough food to eat, comfortable beds to sleep in etc. For Smith human economic activity made little sense if you thought people were just pursuing material comfort.
I think that what Smith was getting at was that people engaged in conspicuous consumption on items like linen shirts and leather shoes in order to signal internal characteristics to others. If it was widely believed that anyone who was fit, moderately bright, and worked reasonably hard could earn enough to buy a linen shirt and leather shoes then not having these items became a signal of negative characteristics – a kind of conspicuous underconsumption.
Most people agree that you can’t judge a book by its cover. But despite this they’re unwilling to read every book they come across – that strategy takes too long. Instead they look for signals like favorable reviews in the NYT. In the same way what most people value in others is their underlying abilities and character not how they do their hair or where they went to school. However, as with books they don’t have time to get to know everyone well enough to observe the valued characteritics for themselves. So they rely on signals like fame, wealth, grades, clothes, address etc.
It’s never enough to just be caring, honest intelligent, hard working, and have good taste – if you’ve got it you have to flaunt it. And, unfortunately, flaunting often requires money.
The ability to earn money has become an indicator for all kinds of things people value in each other. If somebody told you that they were a really smart, hard working, success oriented guy with great social skills and sound judgement would you believe them if you also knew that they earned $15,000 a year flipping burgers?
actually thats me…except i only earn 7500 a year and scrub toilets…
As I recall, there was supposed to be an early Greek philosopher who got so fed up with cracks to the effect “if you’re so clever why aren’t you rich?” that he took a sabbatical from philosophising, applied his knowledge of the heavens to spotting an impending bumper olive crop, and cornered the hire of all the local olive presses – and all in order to get his philosophy taken seriously. Was it Thales of Miletus? I forget.
Sorry but I know people who earn simply huge amounts of money, and the amount of money they earn does not make them desirable or admired.
It is still the person they are that people love. The massmedia (which is after all largely an entertainment industry) that all the interesting people have mucho money and that anybody with money is interesting, but that’s just the story they sell. The people in the industry know the sad truth ofthe people they write. No wonder so many of them are so bitter and angry.
And if money is so important in gaining social regard, why is Jamie Packer regarded as such as d!ldo?
Sorry but I know people who earn simply huge amounts of money, and the amount of money they earn does not make them desirable or admired.
It is still the person they are that people love. The massmedia (which is after all largely an entertainment industry) screans that all the interesting people have mucho money and that only somebody with money is interesting, but that’s just the line they have to sell. The people in the industry know the sad truth of the people they write about. No wonder so many of them are so bitter and angry.
And if money is so important in gaining social regard, why is Jamie Packer universally regarded as a complete d*ldo?
Just a technical note to say the site looks fine in Opera 7 as well.
John has kindly asked me to elaborate on my brush with paedophilia in order to foster discussion on this difficult topic.
When I began to write about my experience on last weeks Message Board, I was propelled to do so by the Hollingworth debate. As I wrote, the realisation dawned on me that the experience I had to share, which is largely a story of two separate but related parts, had astounding insights into the predicament the GG now finds himself with the majority of society at large. As well I realised that I could not do justice to this issue without fully elaborating on the emotions and circumstances of the players involved.
When I began to recall these stories in my own mind, I was astounded/overwhelmed by them myself in the process. I assume the full telling would have a similar result for the reader. Let me say this, the telling would involve some considerable process over some weeks, due largely to my self-employed status and consequent time constraints. I also have a feeling that the insights revealed, would clog up John’s blog-site somewhat over time.
Perhaps dealing with this issue in a frank and open way is an idea whose time has come. What say the readers and John?
I’m reposting Observa’s comment from the old message board. I’m certainly hoping that it will stimulate more discussion, and will try to organise things, with new posts if necessary, so that the Message Board isn’t too clogged.
Observa writes
I realize this is a difficult topic for many. Perhaps I can recount my own brush with paedophilia to elucidate some of the emotions, surrounding this issue.
Fourteen years ago, my own daughter, then a toddler of two, was abducted and interfered with in a large suburban shopping mall. My wife, and another kindy mum acquaintance at the time, were out shopping with five young children in tow. My son was then six and the oldest of the other mum’s trio was perhaps only a year or so older than he. Now you might say this was a recipe for trouble, but it is a familiar sight in any busy shopping mall. Kids soon get hungry and thirsty and they all lunched at the food hall upstairs as part of their big day out.
Five boisterous young’ns at the table and the inevitable happened. A drink was spilled all over my daughter’s cardigan sleeve and she was upset and crying, at being wet and uncomfortable. My wife slipped off her denim halter-neck dress to remove the wet cardigan as well as the long sleeved top underneath. As the special detectives pointed out later, it was most likely that the brief sight of a young toddler in only her pants and socks and shoes, had at that moment, added another more sinister person shadowing this innocent group, on their fun day out at the mall. My wife, being used to small tragedies like the upset drink, had slipped on a spare T-shirt she carried, replaced the largely dry, denim dress and the party continued on their way, all refreshed and chirpy again.
They halted outside a small costume jewellery and trinket shop downstairs, where the display stands were almost as numerous outside as in. The mothers fossicked among the busy stands moving further into the shop, all the while, checking on the children’s whereabouts. Suddenly my wife was aware that her youngest was no longer with the group. With a helium filled balloon tied to her wrist (while the older children clutched theirs), my daughter had probably walked around a large display carousel near the door, to be swept up by a male stranger in his thirties. He then walked left of the doorway out of sight, around the corner, past an ice-cream shop and left into a corridor which contained a number of store room doors, toilets, etc. As I came to realise only too well, he was carrying one of the most precious human beings in my life, walking toward an exit door at the end of the corridor, which led to the car-park outside. A woman serving in the ice-cream shop recalled later to detectives, seeing the common sight of a ‘father’ carrying a fractious child (with a balloon) as he passed by.
Without wanting to appear dramatic, it’s late and I feel I won’t be able to do justice to this topic without coming back to it later. I confess it is dredging up some emotions I had thought were buried some years ago. If John is willing to post my comments on the next message board, I will try and further them then.
Re website
“JRE” is Java Runtime Environment, it’s a multi-meg plugin for browsers. Maybe that’s not the reason, because the side panel now has a grey background, but the contents are still at the bottom. Anyway, that’s as far as my tech knowledge goes.
A few years ago, before the last federal election, the ALP set up a “think tank”. It was intimated that interested citizens could submit their ideas. I sent an e-note to the Chair, David B of Brisbane, suggesting they run a board like Slashdot. He replied “what’s that?”
My point re blogsites is that mass electronic messaging/discussions/fora/blogs should advise the passing curious of the specifications required for participating effectively. Something like ‘this site is best viewed with …’. There’s nothing “wrong” with my setup, and if there was I could not rely on a team of techs to put it right. I get the bog standard issue, with instructions to leave it alone. Heh!
It’s clear that one blogger cannot do a survey of most of the common workstations to make sure the discussion is seen the same way on all of them. Maybe that’s not important, if the bloggers circle of pals say ‘it looks fine to me’. But Slashdot is used by thousands, and about 50% of them would complain loudly if the site wasn’t what they expected.
I guess it’s something to do with communication. Our federal MPs have email addresses. Some reply to (encouraging) messages, some do not. I haven’t badgered the Member for Melbourne lately, but he replied at length, more than once, even though I am a complete stranger and not even in his electorate. More recently, I sent a mild criticism of the website of one of his close associates (similar to my complaint with yours) to the “MP” address. If the problem persists, I may try again. If that has no effect, I will conclude the person is not a communicator, ie, lots to say, but not listening.
ps The layout is OK with MSIE, but that’s not my choice of browser. It’s a pity there is a choice, that just makes life difficult. 🙂
Microsoft has signed a three-year software deal with The Council of Australian University Directors of Information Technology (CAUDIT) which will see it rollout its desktop productivity software to over 72,000 full time university employees at 33 campuses Australia-wide.
Corner in Oil
Thales’s reputation for wisdom is further enhanced in a story which was related by Aristotle. (Politics, 1259 a 6-23). Somehow, through observation of the heavenly bodies, Thales concluded that there would be a bumper crop of olives. He raised the money to put a deposit on the olive presses of Miletus and Chios, so that when the harvest was ready, he was able to let them out at a rate which brought him considerable profit. In this way, Thales answered those who reproached him for his poverty. As Aristotle points out, the scheme has universal application, being nothing more than a monopoly. There need not have been a bumper harvest for the scheme to have been successful. It is quite likely that Thales was involved in commercial ventures, possibly the export of olive oil, and Plutarch reported that Thales was said to have engaged in trade (Plut. Vit. Sol. II.4).
http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/t/thales.htm#Corner%20in%20Oil
Re paedophilia
I have scant knowledge of the literature in this area, but my starting observation is that this business is qualitatively different to most crimes. I can understand that laws are necessary to help prevent people stealing, since otherwise most, perhaps all, people would, and so on.
Yet in this area, it simply isn’t the case that everybody would be tempted to ‘indulge’ if there were no legal consequences. For most people, I’m sure the whole idea is just unbelievably sicko. Perhaps offenders should be exiled to an island somewhere.
Continued by Observa…….
Aware of her missing child, my wife immediately began to move about the displays scanning the store for her 2 yr old. ‘Where’s Suzanne?’ she posed to the other mum. ‘She was right here with the others’ was the reply but with increasing alarm my wife was already at the door of the shop, scanning into the, not overly crowded mall, for her ‘lost’ daughter.
The shop was located at the corner of the main meeting place of four broad walkways. Directly across the way were the escalators to the upper level and beyond them the main entry doors to the mall. The toddler could not possibly have made it to the escalators, nor the entry beyond. Nor did it seem she could have made it across the mall to the walkway to the left of the escalators. Aware that she could have turned the corner into the walkway opposite the escalators(indeed the way she was taken) my wife scanned in this direction to no avail. Returning to the other mum, with a quick conference, my wife agreed to check the store next door to the right, while her friend double- checked with the trinket shop staff, that there was no escape for a toddler at the rear of the store. Returning again to the group after a fruitless search and enquiry of the shop next door, there was only one course left. One mum would take the remaining children upstairs with her to administration to raise the alarm, while my wife widened her, by now, frantic search of the mall. A two year old had apparently vanished in the blink of two mums’ eyes!
While one increasingly desperate mother searched in and out of shops enquiring after her daughter, another older mother, who worked in a flower shop, went to take a toilet break in the staff toilet, in the service corridor I spoke of before. She walked to the, last but one, door from the exit in this corridor and was inserting her staff pass key in the door when something puzzled her. From behind the last door, which she knew to be a handicapped toilet, she heard a small child crying. She moved to that door and knocked on it calling out, ‘Is everything allright?’ With that, the door opened and she looked straight into the face of man in his thirties, who brushed past her and walked quickly up the corridor, back into the mall. Instinctively this mother knew something was terribly wrong. As she glanced from crying toddler back to the retreating man, the horror of what she had interrupted struck her motionless. She wanted to cry out to stop the man escaping but the words wouldn’t form. Instinctively, this mother turned to calm the distressed child and help her find her ‘mummy’.
A desperate and tearful mother, who had heard the public address description of her lost child, while she searched in vain, was returning via the escalators, to see if there was any news of her daughter at administation. She was overjoyed to meet another mum at the escalators carrying the object of her search. She gushed with relief and thanks as a precious infant was transferred. It seemed her distress had dissolved completely when the other woman said ‘There is something more you should know. I think we should go up to the administration office.’
Website looks pretty good.
HP has launched a low cost ‘people’s notebook‘ in Asia that is preloaded with Linux.
(link borrowed from Danny Yee’s site)
C8to says he earns “7500 a year and scrubs toilets…”
I can go one better… I once scrubbed toilets in Burger King.
My partner used to scrub toilets in police cells, but I’ve only ever done it at home, for nothing.
I can see that I’m mixing with a low-grade crowd here. I used to scrub toilets in a 5-star hotel.
Following on from Observa’s post, and my own thoughts on utilitarianism, if we accept, as seems to be the case, that prospects for rehabilitation are very poor for sex-offenders of this kind, is there a utilitarian case for indefinite detention/intrusive monitoring?
I suspect there is, and that consistent support for rehabilitation where it is feasible should imply support for lengthy sentences/supervision when it is not.
If you throw in enough powerful chemicals you don’t need to scrub at all. Everything comes to him who waits.
>>if we accept, as seems to be the case, that prospects for rehabilitation are very poor for sex-offenders of this kind, is there a utilitarian case for indefinite detention/intrusive monitoring?
There’s a case for castration, and I’ve never understood quite why it’s regarded as intrinsically illiberal to support it.
Irreversibility in the face of fallibility, as with capital punishment. Plus there’s Machiavelli’s idea that it is better to harm someone greatly than in a way that still allows him to retaliate (see Herodotus’ story about the eunuch who took his revenge on the professional castrator who had gelded him).
Scrubbing toilets – looxury!