Being focused on martial arts at the moment, I’ve run across quite a few references to boxing, an activity which continues to mystify me. My big question about is: whose idea was it to give boxers gloves? It seems like a recipe for protecting the fists (the bit that hurts most, in my experience) while maximising the potential for brain damage, thereby being simultaneously wimpy and deadly.
I also saw in the UQ News a story about the exclusion of women from boxing, which made the obligatory reference to Million Dollar Baby, a film I haven’t seen yet, though I plan to. It struck me that, of the sports I’ve had any involvement with [not that many, I admit] karate is easily the most gender-integrated. Women and men routinely train together, and, in my experience around 30 per cent of the participants in the average tournament would be women.
I’m not suggesting that non-Western martial arts are some sort of gender-neutral utopia, but the contrast with boxing is still pretty striking.
John Quiggin 
The current system of boxing under Queensbury rules is the compromise that was adopted to reduce the harm done by old style bare-knuckle fighting when it was realised that a ban would just force it underground. (That’s what’s so fundamentally stupid about all those who want to ban it now.)
Read George MacDonald Fraser’s book “Black Ajax” for an insight into that world. He makes it quite clear how much damage that kind of boxing can do – a small fist on the end on the end of a bog arm can do far more damage than any properly gloved fist.
That was a big arm, of course.
Interestingly enough, the Jeet Kune Do style created by legendary (because he’s dead) Bruce Lee was based primarily on the ergonomics and manouvreability of boxing. He also inplemented ShaoLin martial arts into the form, and also quite a bit of philosophy. The way of the intercepting fist is the translation for Jeet Kune Do, although I do believe I have misspelt it.
True about the above, though. Being on the receiving end of quite a few bare knuckles in my time, and on the giving end of a couple… Well, maybe one if I was lucky enough… I know just how damaging bare knuckle fighting can be first hand. It’s not something utterly brutal like Muai Thai kickboxing, which the boxers severe the nerves in their legs so that they feel no pain when using knees as a weapon, but bare-fist fighting, when done right, tends to end a fight in a matter of seconds.
That’s about all I care to type.
Have a nice night.
It’s my understanding that the gloves were first introduced to reduce the incidence of fouls like eye-gouging. That is, to protect the guy on the recieving end, and not the hands of the guy on the delivering end.
That doesn’t explain why boxing gloves have gotten heavier over time. John Quiggin is spot on – it maximises the chances of brain damage and makes TKOs more rare than the oughta be (every fight I say!).
I don’t watch boxing for that very reason – it’s a silly sport. Bare knuckle no-holds-barred in America’s UFC is simultaneously more brutal, and more humane.
Out of all the sports I’ve been involved in (also not many but did include ju-jitsu in the dim past) equestrian would be the most gender integrated as not only do you train together but also compete against each other.
I like chinese northern long-fist. As for ‘sport’ I think Rugby, baseball and grid iron are all up there with boxing. And what is the point of a game that is so low scoring the chance of a draw is about 30%?
I used to do Hapkido, which doesn’t have any rules, so they have to make them up for each tournament. Frequently, a tournament would have a rule banning punches to the head, but allowing kicks to the head. This seemed a recipe for reducing the probability of minor head injuries (we don’t use gloves, of course), while increasing the probability of really bad head injuries.
Professor Quiggin,
Amateur boxing and professional boxing a different sports with very different rules, different equipment. Comparing them is like comparing go-kart racing with F1. In amateur boxing heavier gloves are used (these pack less of a punch, being heavier and harder to accelerate, and are easier to dodge); the bout is only 3-4 rounds long (professional boxing bouts can be up to 15 rounds long) and safety equipment is used. No extra points are awarded for excessive force, and if boxers are not properly matched the referee will stop the fight. A bloody or one-sided bout in amateur boxing is considered to be evidence of poor matching or organisation.
Here is a link from Lou Lewis’ boxing site to a 1994 journal article which concludes that “the results of extensive investigation into boxing, at an amateur level, suggest that participation does not expose the individual to harmful neurophysiological damage”:
“…being simultaneously whimpy and deadly.” What a great phrase! I’d never contemplated anything being for wusses and being deadly. Wonder if sky diving will ever get that rap?
JQ,
Your guess is correct: gloves are worn to protect the softer bones in your hand from the harder bones in your head. The skull has evolved for hard impact, the hands haven’t. Bare knuckle fighting is extremely hard on the knuckles. It’s also relatively ineffective. I’ll agree with Steve Edwards for once and say that UFC is more interesting to watch because it the skull-bashing that goes on in boxing tends to be bypassed for more effective combat techniques.
I’m guessing your experience of gender-integrated Karate reflects the fact that you’ve been attending tournaments that do not allow full-contact. That tends to have a huge effect on the enthusiasm of women (and many men)for a combat sport. I don’t think it’s an Eastern-Western thing.
Bare knuckle fighting was very effective when it got to the prize fighter level. Do read “Black Ajax”.
Actually, PM, I rather liked “bog arm” and didn’t consider it might have been a typo. It conjured up images of massive biceps forged by years of digging peat.
Black Ajax is a work of fiction, PML, and what are you comparing bare-knuckle fighting to?
You forget whose fiction. George MacDonald Fraser routinely does lots of sound legwork to provide accurate material to work with – and appendices to bring it out.
As it happens, he made a few references to my old school in the 19th century, so I had a bit of background knowledge of my own with which to cross-check his reliability. He is reliable.
One of the major points he brought out was that the damage of a punch wasn’t just from its energy and momentum but also from how small an area that could be concentrated on. As for the rest… well, look into what “coming up to scratch” meant, and how the values associated with that were entangled with the qualities though peculiar to Britain (bulldog spirit, etc.).
Of course karate attracts women – it involves kicking. A dishonourable and womanly sort of sport IMO. Boxing is better, though hopelessly corrupt.
PML,
I’m a huge fan of Fraser, but he’s a little prone to hyperbole. The reality of prize-fighting was a bit more like cock-fighting…except without the sporting integrity. Gloves came in to make fights (and fighters’ hands) last longer – for the baying audience’s pleasure, natch.
I offer a mild difference of opinion with Fyodor. Ultimate Fighting WAS interesting to watch for about the first ten series. Then the “sport” martial arts basically threw in the towel and left the series to the boxers and grapplers.
It was so much more interesting to watch when you had 200lb shootfighters up against 600lb Sumos.
I saw one ripper of a fight when a Karate guy around 180lb decked a 6’8” Sumo. The Sumo guy fell to the ground and couldn’t get up – so the rest of the fight consisted of this Karate guy standing next to blubber boy punching him in the skull.
The ref had to stop the fight after a minute of solid head blows because the Sumo was getting concussed, and the Karate kid had broken every bone in his hand!!!
I said UFC was more interesting than boxing, not necessarily compelling viewing. You obviously got a lot out of it.
Um. Fyodor, please read Black Ajax. And, read up how licensing in general worked, e.g. licensing of public houses; the idea was always to use a sort of “good bacteria” principle to contain the previously existing bad bacteria. This is what 19th century boxing reform was about – not pandering to audiences as such.
Um. PML, the evolution of boxing has always been driven by the spectator, not the combatant. It’s part of what makes it so repugnant as a “sport”. I might have a read of the book, however, as I like Fraser’s more famous oeuvre.
Fyodor, that is just not so. The Marquis of Queensbury was a spectator, granted, but wearing his other hat he was a British aristocrat. These changes weren’t brought in by spectators in general but by a very specific interest group – the “fancy”.
Patrician or pleb, allsame. It’s just panem et circenses.
Of course karate attracts women – it involves kicking. A dishonourable and womanly sort of sport IMO.
So you associate “womanly” with “dishonourable”? Did this come out in a way you didn’t mean? or are you simply being a tool CL?
It seems quite obvious to me that he associated “kicking” with both “dishonourable” and “womanly”. Since kicking is something done by both dishonourable fighters and women.
Did you mean to be so intentionally ignorant, or were you just being a tired old hag?
OK, let’s keep it civilised, or I’ll have to come in and kick some heads.
I think Yobbo, yer travelling the right way for a swift kick where you least want it.
CL was trolling, Helen rose to the bait and your response is to tell her she’s old and ugly? No wonder you keep posting pics of Asian chicks with winsome “you such a big man” expressions and then head off to Thailand. You’d get your money’s worth there from what you seem to expect of women. No uppity backchat, just submissive praise from rentadolls. Emotional bonding? Hell you’ve got yer cricket team for that.
Basically I think any thread revolving around manly pursuits should keep real clear of dissing the ladies on the grounds of their feminity. It’s a gentleman’s kinda thing. Even Flashman would understand (at least in public). But hey, yer from WA right? A pretty dishonourable place I understand.
Back on topic. I’m a 110% proof Origami Master m’self.
That’s right, Nabsy: you fold every time.
christ almighty, CL sure got what he aimed for. Yobs rose to that like a Pavlovian dog in heat.
CL’s point is of course illogical because people enter the match knowing what is and isn’t allowed and it takes lots of guts to enter a match knowing you might get kicked in the head and skill to avoid it. and insofar as it’s a form of self-defence, it would be a mighty effective for a skilled practitioner as you really don’t give a toss about Queensberry rules when you’re being attacked by a mugger.
I forgot one of the first rules of fighting – ignore trolls.