It’s time, once again for the Monday Message Board. As usual, civilised discussion and absolutely no coarse language, please.
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John Quiggin 
Sorry if this is old news to some of you, but I just read yet another story, from the Courier Mail in this case, illustrating the decline in academic standards occurring under the present Corporate Spiv doctrine of education (or should that be Teaching and Learning?).
It’s only from a Business school, admittedly, but still very funny.
His original mark was restored? On the basis that Ms Luck was clearly a person whose judgement could be trusted?
Actually, Business faculties in Australia don’t have any commitment whatsoever to the development of English writing skills. The fact that lecturers like this – who can’t write decent English themselves – are recruited all the time, is all the proof you need.
I’m not necessarily saying this matters – maybe correct and coherent writing is only for ageing and irrelevent pedants like me. But that’s a separate issue.
(Note that I didn’t claim I can spell.)
In a couple of years myself and my fiancee will be leaving Sydney, most likely for Melbourne. The property prices mean we will never be able to afford a house while having children in Sydney. On top of this the infrastructure, particularly transport, has fallen apart. It does not look like things will improve anytime in the next 15 years. Today’s announcement about the Cross City Tunnel being typical of the kind of infrastructure planning incompetence Sydneysiders have to look forward to.
I know a lot of other first home buyers in Sydney who are working out how they will afford a family and children are thinking the same thing.
I am wondering, is Sydney about to experience an extended period of emmigration of young first home buyers resulting in an aging of Sydney’s demographic? What are the consequences for both Sydney and other major cities in Australia?
Paul Sheehan gives his axe a good grind in this column on the Abbott-Albanese scuffle.
Where he goes wrong is in assuming they can’t both be right. Labor branch-stacking deserves all the ridicule it gets, from whatever quarter. That doesn’t mean that the question ‘Aren’t there any Australians left in the Australian Labour Party?’ wasn’t an opportunistic dog whistle.
So the existence of ethnic networks is exploited by political operatives. Who knows, the branch recruits might even be criminal gangs for all I know. But that doesn’t make them less Australian, any more than being a Catholic or a Mason makes you less Australian, or a Collingwood or Essendon supporter for that matter, if branch stacking happened to operate through football clubs.
Abbott deliberately twists an issue about ethnic groupings into an issue about foreigners. Sheehan probably can’t see the difference in the first place.
still working it out : I believe Sydney is already experiencing a large loss of people (both retirees and younger people) and has been for some time (the stats can be found on the ABS), although they are replaced to some extent by migrants — but the overall effect is less growth than other major Australian cities.
Also, perhaps you don’t know this, but the infrastructure in Melbourne is pretty poor as well (aside from the traffic, I don’t find Melbourne and Sydney much different in this respect). If you are going to move anyway and can find work easily, you might want to consider moving somewhere nice in another country rather than Melbourne, as it often isn’t any more difficult to move OS than interstate if you can get an employer to organize a visa, and you might get paid a lot more as well.
Is the Paul Sheehan who wrote the column in the SMH in some way related to the Paul Sheehan who brought us “Unique Water” per medium of the same newspaper? I think we should be told.
Seriously why is this totally discredited fantasist still getting free space in one of our major newspapers to prattle his twaddle?
Conrad & still working it out,
I’ve been in the Army for 15 years and as a result, had the privelage of living and working in Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth, Brisbane (where I grew up), plus a variety of regional centres such as Toowoomba, Wagga Wagga and Albury. I’ve also had short stints in the US and UK. I’m now living and working in Sydney.
All I can say is that when the time comes for me to choose where I live, it wont be Melbourne, and it definately wont be Sydney. I dont especially like Melbourne’s weather and Sydney is well – just far too Sydney (self absorbed, excessively dirty and every piece of infrastructure seems to be crumbling).
I will choose Brisbane or Perth. If you want to stay in Australia, move North or West. There are great things about all of Australias places, but in my view, these two offer the best.
Ugly Dave, I second your motion.
It sounds like you will be part of the economic relief valve.
Before you leave NSW do you think you could help those of us who are staying and vote Labor our of office?
We thought about Brisbane, and in terms of value for money its a lot better than Melbourne, but we don’t like the heat. Perth sounds wonderul but it has the water shortage problem which I believe is only going to get worse and its very far from Sydney which we will still like to visit for family reasons.
“Before you leave NSW do you think you could help those of us who are staying and vote Labor our of office?”
I still can’t decide if we are better off with an incompetent Labour government or the Liberal’s Peter Debnam backed up by the conservative religous movement and the Hillsong Church.
Ah, the joys of democracy.
My extended take on Sheehan’s column here.
Nice take Guy. James, it may be a generous take on my behalf but I don’t think it was a dog whistle Abbot’s part. Watching it, it looked more like a kind of unreflected racial assumption on who is Australian and who isn’t that I’d kind of hoped had been worked out of Australians over the past few decades. He looked a lot more considered but a lot less comfortable speaking in favour of multiculturalism on Lateline. It’s a shame we have to grade these kind of statements over the calculated weasel of a dog whistle but that seems where we have found ourselves again.
Then vote for an independent.
Still working it out eh? There is not a state labor government in office which has not made such a stuff up of their state that they don’t deserve prosecution for what they have done.
The state Liberal Party in NSW has some very effective strategies to keep it out of office. After all, labor has been hopless in NSW for longer than anywhere else.
Guy: I always love to read a good fisking! Hehehe….
I am pretty sure that the Liberal’s will win the next election in NSW. The cops being soft on Lebanese gangs will resonate strongly and Debnam played that issue very smart. It says alot about Debnam’s guts and skill as a politician that he was willing to take it to the NSW Police on that issue and if he keeps that up I don’t see how Iemma can win.
But having said that this is the same party that appointed Bracks (idiot, First Class) and Chikarovski (what were they thinking?) as its two previous leaders. The original M5 mess was due to John Fahey’s government and the problems NSW faces seem to be as much due to the incompetence of the state bureaucracies as the politicians in charge. It will be a very interesting election campaign to see what the Liberals promise on infrastructure.
I hope they are better. I still look around at all the things Greiner did wondering what more he could have done if he had been in power as long as Carr. But at this stage, apart from Debnam I am yet to see much talent from the NSW Liberals either.
Michael :
I like Brisbane and Perth as well (especially Perth, excluding how isolated it was). I wouldn’t live in them, however, as not looking like a white guy means that I would also get the type of harassment you don’t get as much in Melbourne and Sydney (excluding if you look Arabic). I’m probably biased, however, as I haven’t been to Brisbane or Perth for donkeys years , and I have heard that Brisbane had become a much more decent place in the last few years (I seem to remember the Mayor of Brisbane city was half Chinese some time ago), although I couldn’t confirm it. It would be interesting to know what the opinions of other obvious minority groups is that live their now.
still working it out Says:
I think you’ll find that Steve Bracks is actually the current Victorian Premier. 🙂
Guy: That supposed fisking of yours on Paul Sheehan hasn’t managed to score any points. Sheehan’s article stands.
Conrad,
Take your point. I’ll say this though – Perth is an extremely cosmopolitan place as a result of its proximity to Asia and Africa (its closer to Bali than it is to Sydney, and in the same time zone as Hong Kong).
Brisbane likewise has changed its racial make up substantially. Even Toowoomba (National party heartland of old) has several hundred people from Kenya living there now, and they are well integrated. Not to mention a wide variety of students from around the world studying at USQ.
The biggest influx of newcomers though is still from “Mexico” however!
Conrad, you didn’t look at Adelaide. Don’t know what you look like, but if you were looking to live in the greatest state, consider South Australia.
A survey of some sort said that we were the “whitest” state. May be so, but the Leader of the Liberals in the Upper House is half Japanese. Ex Lord Mayor of Adelaide (Alfred Huang) was born in China, (first such to be Lord Mayor of a Australian capital city) and most importantly he is an engineer.
Seems to me that we are fairly nonchalant about who one’s ancestors were. Though many sneer at us because of our non convict status (despite the fact that of the three hundred who were in South Australia to provide lunch for the passengers of the Buffalo, quite a few would have been of dubious background) I like to remember that we were the non conformist religion state for quite some time. Then the Anglicans and Catholics started coming, sorry.
It seems to me the deal stitched up last week in New Delhi between President Bush and Prime Minister Singh may be very significant, if only for its implications for the NPT and exports of Uranium, but I have seen almost no commentary.
Still working it out: Did you you consider Canberra? Assuming you can find work there, it’s close enough to visit the rellies, houses are cheaper and the weather is cool.
I certainly wouldn’t recommend Perth. We’re in the middle of nowhere and have the highest rate of violent crime in Australia, and its no cheaper here than it is in Brisbane or Adelaide.
And if you did find a job here, the current government would attempt to regulate your industry out of existence in the near future anyway.
Bush’s “Noocular” deal may make manifest the split between Republican Senators who decide to remain Bush loyalists and Republican Senators who finally decide to dump Bush.
Bush is an electoral liability for the Republicans in the forthcoming mid-term elections. Many Republicans will be sorely tempted to distance themselves from the Bush clique.
Under the US Constitution Bush needs any treaty with India sharing nuclear knowledge to be ratified by the Senate. Even Bush can’t skirt this provision of the US Constitution.
Diplomatic relations with India are marginal to the vital interests of Republican constituencies, and yet are central to Bush’s evermore eccentric vision of the Long War (nee The Global War on Terror).
Woodrow Wilson back in 1919 suffered a similar humiliation over the refusal of the US Senate to ratify the League of Nations, an issue that had become central to the career of the President, but marginal to everyone else.
Tragedy repeating itself as farce?
Katz Says:
I very much doubt that this is true.
Selling stuff to India is probably central to the profit of some campaign contributor, and that’s about as deep as Bush’s analysis goes.
We’ll probably also find out in a year or two that some sensible person said to Bush: “Whatever you do, don’t say…”, and that Bush decided to say it anyway, like a defiant four year old.
steve at the pub Says:
A well reasoned argument, there, SATP, and much better than you’re usually capable of.
Now, if I disagree, will you threaten to hold your breath until your face turns blue?
Face is already blue SJ, ever employed staff? You would know what I mean. Ever tried to deal with a regulatory government department? You would really know what I mean!
You think Guy managed to actually fisk Sheehan’s article? Not at all. He completely misses the point, possibly due to some chip on the shoulder, more likely due to lack of exposure to mainstream opinion and values.
SJ,
Whatever some hypothetical “sensible person” may have said in a futile attempt to persuade Bush to against offering India a nuclear deal has, by definition, nothing to do with Bush’s bizarre vision of the course of the GWOT.
The central issue is that Bush must have treaties ratified by the Senate. As this story shows, that outcome is in some doubt.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1584622.htm
I suppose it’s a distiction without a difference, but you assert that he has a “bizarre vision”, where I would assert that he simply hasn’t a clue. The “vision” stuff just comes from his speechwriter, and has no connection with what the idiot himself thinks.
SATP
The only person who mentioned fisking was you, so it’s really your problem if you were disappointed with the quality of the fisking.
If it’s too much trouble to state your substantive disagreement with Guy’s argument, or anyone else’s for that matter, why don’t you visit blogs where people just vote on things – I think Tim Blair does daily opinion polls, for example. Voting involves just one mouse click, and it would save you so much time to do what you do best – whinge about taxes and regulations.
James Farrell: Please copy & paste where I “whinge” about taxes & regulations.
After that you could perhaps explain your implication that an excess of both is somehow a benefit to society?
Time Blair has excellent sub-editing skills, and his site is notable for the quality of the dry humour. He does seem to have rather a good memory, and will admit errors. However have not noticed opinion polls.
If I want opinion polls I can go to yahoo.au, where some real corkers are to be found.
Hehe, poor quality fisking is the shame not of the reader, but the author (just a tip James)
Do’h -“Bracks” should have been “Brogden”. Calling someone an idiot while getting their name wrong has got to qualify for some sort of Homer award.
yobbo,
I know Canberra reasonably well. I like it a lot. It certainly does not have infrastructure problems. Amazing what large amounts of government money and decent planning can do. I don’t think there is such a thing as a small government Canberran. Unfortunately it does not have nearly as much to offer as Brisbane, Melbourne or I imagine Perth or Adelaide because of its smaller size while it still has the same median price as Melbourne (Melbourne is $375,000 and Canberra is $368,000).
And its got that strangely characterless feel about it, although that is changing. In another 20 years I reckon it will be great if they ever release enough land to keep property prices reasonable.
There is not a state labor government in office which has not made such a stuff up of their state that they don’t deserve prosecution for what they have done.
What an absurd load of rubbish. What’s Bracks done? What’s Beattie done?
How could an elected politician have the hide to be telling Australians that they were at risk of being hit by a nuclear missile fired from Iraq when, at the same time, via the AWB, he was sending millions of dollars to Saddam?
Surely that is irrefuable evidence of the complete contempt Howard has for his constituents, that and his megalomania.
P.S. sorry for the typo re. ‘irrefutable’
In NSW Bob Carr has got to go. Luckily for us he figured that out for himself.
Shoosh Ros! We don’t wanna end up like Sydney and Melbourne.
swio –
Try Toowoomba – cheaper than Brizzie but still in commuting distance. Australia’s second-largest inland city. A lot cooler than Brisbane or Sydney, but not yet as cold as Melbourne or Canberra. Boasts a uni and a flower festival. Shorter drive to Sydney than Brisbane is. And the only city in the land with enough foresight to embrace full water recycling.
Well I told you all that Sheehan was barking when he recently wrote that “someone won a soccer game, therefore John Howard” article, but you wouldn’t believe me.
SATP, if I may stand in for Mr Farrel with the cutting and the pasting about regulations:
“Ever tried to deal with a regulatory government department? You would really know what I mean!”
It was tough researching that. I had to use my scroll wheel.
Michael: don’t bother with Brisbane if you are of manifest aboriginal descent …
Indigenous singer left for dead
Fantastic result for Simon Crean. Local politics guzzumps machine politics!
Is Melbourne really that cold? How on earth would any of you stand for most of the developed world, which has far more severe winters than Melbourne could ever put on?
Besides, climate change will soon warm the place up.
Wilful asks: Is Melbourne really that cold? How on earth would any of you stand for most of the developed world, which has far more severe winters than Melbourne could ever put on?
I’m assured by various Swedes that Melbourne’s winters end up being colder then Swedish ones, because as Australians, we forget that winters are cold, and don’t build our houses and other buildings or our clothes accordingly.
An off-topic discussion not too long ago on geek website Slashdot suggests that in general, Anglo-Americans (including us Australians) are very bad at building houses to keep the weather outside, where it belongs. I’ve never lived anywhere but Melbourne so I can’t comment much. Slashdotters are computer-geeks mostly, and so perhaps they shouldn’t comment much, either.
I’ve never found Melbourne to be cold, and when I become Indisputable Overlord of the Whole World, heater manufacturers had best be concerned about the future of their line of business, because I fully intend to regulate them out of it.
Wilful: Everything is relative, and if I ever have the social misfortune to journey to the southern half of Oz (Brisbane et al) I always find myself insufficiently clad. The bulk of the developed world (the dwelling place of the bulk of light skinned people is what you really meant) is bitterly cold, I am so very glad my ancestors were transported to Oz, & even more glad my immediate ancestors moved north.
Surley you jest with your question “What have Bracks & Beattie done”? Hahaha…. Or are you a member of the “if it ain’t happenin’ in NSW it ain’t happenin'”?
Sean: A quick scroll? Hmm, you certainly do have your hand on it mate! You surely are aware of the difference between a tradesman and a tool? Having the misfortune to have to deal with staff at a govt dept and griping about laws themselves are totally different things. Try to not over-develop the muscles in your right arm, not too much anyway.
The results driven community in particular has a very difficult time with lame-brained government staffers. It comes from them spending their entire live in an environment where lack of performance has no negative consequences for them. You’ll know what I mean if you ever have the misfortune to be subject to a tax audit which is conducted by an ex-Duntroon boy turned tax investigator, or if you have a cop who joined the force at age 18 writing you a ticket because a light was “red” (& if he says so, then it must be so)
in response to Katz’ comments on bush and india,
certain aspects of it dont seem so straightforward to me,
firstly bush is no ordinary elected president, it was a scam, twice operated successfully so the idea that election politics will undo him seems way off to me,
second india seems to have an increasing significance that we obviously are not privvy to yet,
i for one noticed in the weekend oz, a sudden trashing of chinese credentials and india raised as our natural friend, where the hell did that come from,
and if you think the npt will stop our uranium heading to the sub-continent your dreaming,
its also interesting to compare bush to wilson and think of it as tragedy,
wilson was elected by a set up (like bush) through a splitting of the vote, worked mostly for the bankers, especially jp morgan and managed to get the federal reserve set up, america into world war 1 and had alterior motives for the league of nations,
him,, his advisor edward m. house and the bankers knew what they were doing,
and now, bush and his financial backers and advisors know what they are doing,
we dont, so it looks strange are farcical, but it isnt, and if he doesnt complete it the next guy will,
interestingly wilsons advisor edward m. house wrote a fiction in about 1913 about a president taking over america and instituting a fascist state, weird
Smiths,
For the US to trade nuclear material with India outside the framework of the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty, several US laws have to be repealed.
This requires a majority of Senators and a majority of the members of the House of Representatives to agree to the repeal.
Now, it is possible that the Bush Administration will be able to persuade a majority in both houses to do just that. Time will tell.
But there is no way that the Bush Administration can falsify the counting of the congressional vote in the same way as it is alleged that Republican forces falsified the vote in key constituencies during the 2000 and 2004 elections.
WbW,
More like better machine politics trumping slightly worse machine politics. The chance that, in the byzantine world of the ALP, this was a purely local decision is tending towards nil. The idea that Simon Crean is back by a strong local campaign amongst the Party members is almost laughable.
Poor old Simon. His success and its significance is lost among a terribly important debate about which Capital is the best to live in.
Sydney of course has the Gay Mardi Gras. It also has John Howard. My dog is called Rover. Are these things related?
Melbourne is not cold. Coat + beanie = warm as toast.
Even London is not cold. Scotland is cold. Oslo is cold. Moscow is cold.
Perth is perfect. Adelaide is perfect. Melbourne is perfect sometimes. Sydney is perfect a fair bit. Brisbane is horrible for great chunks of the year.
Darwin is a nightmare. Alice Springs is the exhaust outlet for Hell.
Hobart is just glum but plucky. The convicts worked hard to keep warm.