348 thoughts on “Monday Message Board”

  2. John, today Ark tribe is being hauled like a dog before the the Australian Building and Construction Commission for failing to previously answer questions in relation to a dispute over health & safety concerns which occured on a construction site at South Australia’s Flinders University during May 2008. Subsequent to the CFMEU raising their concerns with the company SafeWork SA issued two prohibition notices against Hindmarsh Constructions for OH&S breaches. Now I’m buggered if I know how the current draconian laws are said to be fair if the company is guilty for breaching the law and the CFMEU worker is the one singled out by the DPP for failing to answer questions. Insane.

  3. Sorry John, stuffed it up again the Australian Building and Construction Commission should read Elizabeth Magistrates Court.

  5. I don’t believe it John, two weeks ago two council workers were sacked by the City of Greater Geelong for accepting free steak sandwiches (as a good gesture) for doing a ‘good deed’ and filling several potholes in a sports club car park. Today some 200 ASU workers have gone on strike in support of one of their colleagues who is still to be reinstated. Got to laugh.

  6. Wow, Alice, what a fight on Andy’s website! It’s over. I would have liked a clean knockout, but he kept coming back so it’s a points decision only. But still a clear win, for both of us. That was almost as much fun as a crazy night clubbing with Sarah.

  8. John, today it has been reported that Treasury is trying to save face by distancing themselves and disowning one of their own but it is a bit too late for the Auditor General has already given them a scathing attack for being too sloppy.

  9. I just congratulated you ABOM – but Andy – Ill congratulate your perseverence, on behalf of the banks who should show more gratitude to you. Did you read my post about the desperate state of the French economy and the elevel of debt and the profligate noble class Andy ? (“let them eat cake?”). It looks a lot like the state od budgets in many so called advanced nations right now – massive debt..whilst the noble bank executives continue their profligate ways…

  10. @Alice

    re my post above – I was referring to the level of debt in the french economy before the french revolution (Marie Antionette and Louis X i V ) guillotined after being captured in the servants clothes they tried to escape in….

  11. Ahhhhh wrong… Louis X V 1. Read all about him..just like a Goldman exec. Economies just as bad now. Debt everywhere. Excess everwhere too.

  12. Alice,
    Yes – Louis XIV to Louis XVI. Yet another silly government overspending and getting into too much debt. Lots of foreign wars, grandiose buildings and other massive overspending. Oh – and too many petty and silly trade restritions.
    They were defeated by the countries that had no debt, did not debase the currency, had free trade and regulated as little as possible, with good people like Smith and (later) Mill and Ricardo giving sound economic advice.
    Is that what you meant?

  14. Dear me, Alice. You seem to believe yet another error. This is getting tiring. Nowhere, ever, have I said banks should be subject to less law than anyone else. If they behave illegally they (and the individuals concerned) should face the full penalty of law. All I am saying is that banks should be subject to no special laws. Like your position on the ABCC – just because you decide to become a commercial builder and join the CFMEU should not mean that you are subject to special laws. The same with every other sector.
    You, however, have massive double standards – one law for the poor oppressed workers and another for any group you disagree with. If that is not hypocracy then I fail to understand what is.

  15. Andrew

    You have me mixed up with someone else. What position on the ABCC? What on earth…???

  17. @Andrew Reynolds
    Andy …you can dear me all you like, but to even imagine that the banking sector doesnt need special laws is utterly ridiculous. Of course banks need special legislation because what banks do is different to what other sectors do. You cant have blanket regulation for all industries Andy. Thats a nonsense and if you still dont believe banks need special regulations…you had better read this

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/08/jp-morgan-chase-caught-speculating-with.html

  18. MoSH and myself were agreeing with each other that ABCC coercion powers are draconian. Now, if APRA had the coercion powers of the ABCC, that would be interesting…LOL.

  19. Alice, Andy’s punch drunk. He can’t see straight. No one could confuse you with Moshie!

  21. Alice,
    So you disagree totally with ABOM then – as he believes in free banking you and he disagree.
    .
    Surely, though – the fact that people build buildings and all of our major infrastructure is so important to our economy that they need massive special regulations, intrusive oversight and heavy handed intervention. Surely it is different to what other sectors do.

  22. @Andrew Reynolds
    Look Andy – are you playing diversionary games here? Obfuscating? Confusing? Dropping strips of radar blocking tinsels from a great height?

    When Andy did I bring up, or discuss, or mention ABCC in this blog? Are you on some memory inhibitor Andy?

  24. Alice,
    As I said if I have your opinions wrong I apologise and withdraw. If I make a mistake then I admit to it. I have never had a problem with that. Now – can you answer the questions or are we going to get several more comments that misrepresent (and get totally wrong) my views?

  25. Andy,
    I dont have an opinion on the ABCC. I havent looked into it – at all…at all…

    But I do have an opinion on disappearing bumble bees…

    Now can anyone tell me if this is factual (scientifically) because this is disturbing if it is true. While we argue about de-regulation and the need for regulation and while we argue about climate change and the need for ETS (to do something…..anything…)…

    are we arguing in vain. Could something very much smaller defeat us so much more as a race…than the disappearing bumblebee…

    Truly, this could be scarier than any all our collective arguments about what to do and would suggest the climate is worse than we think (or our pollution of the environment worse than we think..)

    http://www.examiner.com/x-17373-Phoenix-Signs-of-the-Times-Examiner~y2009m8d11-Honey-bees-disappearing-may-be-a-greater-threat-than-global-warming

    Thankyou ABOM for this one. Id like to hear if anyone knows anything about this. I dont want to be scared of Haley’s comet crashing into earth like I was in the 1970s.

  26. @Andrew Reynolds
    Andy – please point to one post I made on ABCC apart from replying that I dont have a clue what you are referring to..and answer my question on the disappearing bees (seeing as you are questioning me on ABCC – I may as well question you on disappearing bees).

  28. Of colurse banks are a special case, the buildng industry doesn’t pose systemic risks to the rest of the economy. Banks do.

  29. Of course banks are a special case, the buildng industry doesn’t pose systemic risks to the rest of the economy. Banks do.

  31. In that case Aly – I apologise and withdraw.
    .
    sdfc,
    So – poorly built buildings can kill many people. Badly build bridges can kill many people and badly disrupt trade. Are you seriously maintaining that people’s money is more important than their lives?

  32. Andrew, That is a bit disingenious. Of course badly built bridges and buildings can kill many people. However even if a building completely collapses it won’t affect the entire population of a country, and it certainly won’t ripple through the entire world economy. A large global investment bank on the other hand…

  33. So – lots of people’s money is more important than a few people’s lives. OK. And the political Left has the hide to say that the Right can be callous.

  34. John, it is about time Australia has its own national ICAC scheme in place and I have to applaud Premier Mike Rann for thinking along those lines and calling for the introduction of a national anti-corruption commission. Thumbs up Rann.

  35. @Andrew Reynolds
    Ta Andy – for apology (twasnt me).
    But I will comment that lots of peoples money IS important to lots of peoples lives. I wont say MORE than a few lives because I cant value a life (and dont subscribe to utitarianism). Now, who are todays elites Andy? They are those who command those financial empires. They are just as elite today as the nobles classes were in history. Of course they will seek to deregulate their own activities. Of course they will seek to minimise their own taxes (while the rest of humanity carries their tax burden). This is not uncommon historically as the elite classes have always sought control over governments, but the day they succeed entirely in owning the government is to admit democracy has failed and the interests of the majority count for nothing, and I would suggest there is sufficient evidence from the GFC that that day is partly if not wholly already here. But it will come to no good outcome Andy, in terms of stability.

  37. Andy, I would also suggest that the behaviour of the CEOs in continuing their absurd self remunerations to themselves and their faithful executives, despite taxpayer bailouts and losses across the globe of billions of savers money, and company profits, is EXTREMELY callous and as I suspect most of these CEOS sit on the right side of politics…then it follows that the political right is far more likely to be extremely callous.

  39. Update, Update, Update, two Geelong council workers sacked for doing a sports club a good deed and in return accepting the sport’s club good gesture of a free lunch have been given their jobs back and instead given given a written warning. What can one say about the whole affair except that the council must be ‘potty’.

  40. “(and dont subscribe to utilitarianism)”

    Not at all? Not even a little bit? Most people use a mixture of utilitarian and deontological reasoning. Then there’s the argument that “inherent good” actually derives from consequences, so in the end utilitarianism is the basis of all morality. Personally, I’m still puzzling over it all, but I’m surprised that anyone can categorically reject one form of ethics or another.

    “Of course they will seek to minimise their own taxes (while the rest of humanity carries their tax burden)”

    I won’t deny the rich seek to minimise their own taxes, but that’s probably because they carry the majority of the tax burden currently (a third of all tax receipts come from capital, and the top 25% of earners pay two-thirds of income tax, for examples). Which is fair, since they own most of the wealth and earn most of the income. But it’s something to keep in mind when talking about tax.

    “then it follows that the political right is far more likely to be extremely callous.”

    It doesn’t follow at all. That’s very poor logic.

  41. Jarrad, in the year 2005-6 Australia’s wealthy held 61% of all household wealth whilst the lowest wealth households held just 1%. Are you for real?

  42. that the sum of the good done for the majority allows some to be wasted Jarrah….
    only in a train crash or other emergency
    Utilitarianism is for disaster management

  43. @Jarrah
    Which is not fair…those that benefit the most can carry their own tax burden and if we give way on that they would want others carrying their bags for nothing..there is no end to demands when you can control governments Jarrah – the slavery of the others is the natural end to this sort of logic and that is the ultimate extreme of callousness.
    Jarrah is for real Moshie.

  45. sdfc,
    I’ll let you decide on that. There have been so many silly arguments advanced about banking and my position on it I thought I might try to see if it was a legitimate debating tactic. For example:
    .
    Alice,
    You seem to be confusing me with someone that supports the Fed’s (and the US government’s) actions. Never mind – you have almost uniformly been incorrect in what you think to be my postion. I am used to it.
    .
    MoSH,
    Can you give the quartiles and source for that statistic? Depending on how it is read it could reveal either a Gini of 1 or a Gini of near zero.
    .
    ABOM,
    *yawn*. Wrong again.

  48. “Jarrah – the slavery of the others is the natural end to this sort of logic and that is the ultimate extreme of callousness.”

    That’s what right-wingers say – taxation is the compulsory acquisition of the product of one’s labour, making one a slave in all but name. So who’s more callous again, left or right?

    It’s these sorts of arguments that make me glad that I’m neither.

  49. Andrew, your comment at 14 appears to make your position fairly clear (banking should be treated no differently to any other industry) while my comment at 28 I assumed made my position fairly clear. Your response at 31 appears to be a bizarre reaction to what was a straight forward comment about a subject you appear to have an interest in.

  50. Andrew Reynolds, those stats are taken directly out of the 2008 Families in Australia report at page 52.

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