It’s time again for weekend reflections, which makes space for longer than usual comments on any topic. As always, civilised discussion and no coarse language.
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John Quiggin 
Rationalist (@ 48) wrote:
Thank you, Rationalist.
I think you have shown mastery of much of rule 9 of “Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation”
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
Well I am no activist, like the overwhelming majority of Australians.
@Rationalist
Since I have been rationed to one comment a day (rationing of goods being the natural social democrat policy), I will have to mention comments that exist ouside this thread.
The article you (rationalist) posted about universities is spot on. I do not associate with the Liberal party (they talk the talk, but when it comes to limiting the size of government they hardly walk the walk), but all it takes to attract the vituperation of the ruling left these days is for someone to make a favourable mention of the free market – I study economics now which is not so bad, but when I did arts/law it was the case that any favourable mention of free trade or personal responsibility would attract a stream of verbal abuse in tutorials.
As to
@Alice
“what is it with governments AND central banks…they get drunk on the good times and cant make sober decisions about how to miantain (sic.) it???”
If I didn’t know any better, I’d swear you’d been reading up on the teachings of the Austrian school. Then again, the Keynesians have surreptitiously adopted this particular complaint with monetary policy into their new manifesto (cause it definitely ain’t in Keynes’ General Theory). Of course, back in 2002-2003, the likes of Krugman were complaining that Greenspan’s credit policy was not loose enough.
And I wouldn’t be surprised if you take this blog in the pool.
@Chris Warren
Rationalist is correct. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are it is a duck. Now substitute the word “duck” with “trot”. And the word quack is still relevant when it comes to the speech patterns of trots like yourself.
“But smarter people can look beyond this.”
Hayek, er, sorry, “The Evil Overlord of Brutopia” (that’s how his name translates into Quigginish) would call this conceit. Coincidently, this statement of yours reminded me of Gene Ray, self-appointed “wisest man on Earth”, who thinks his concept of the time cube is the Great Truth, while modern mathematics is stupid and evil; if only we were as wise as him, we could perhaps understand. So maybe we’re just not as wise and enlightened as your good self, who knows how to plan everything from latte-sipper central. Seriously, go work in a factory for one day of your life, get some dirt under your nails and then come back here and see if you’re still willing to spout this quasi-Marxist nonsense.
@daggett
I don’t know what you’re talking about, but since you are arguing AGAINST rationalist it’s safe to assume that you are almost completely wrong.
@rog
“Good for you, we all benefit from your immersion.”
A positive externality?
Rationalist is right. If these whiny “poor” people can’t pay the rent, it’s their own stupid fault. They should have finished their engineering degrees before moving out of their parents’ house/houses.
@Sebastian
Yeah, I generally make judgements on student politics based off posters that I see around (I am not a member of the union/association nor do I affiliate with any political party). It frightens me when I see posters advertising major academics speaking at functions sponsored by groups such as the “Socialist Alternative” or “Socialist Alliance” or whatever they call themselves nowadays post USSR :P.
I am an engineering student so in many ways there is a layer of abstraction between what I do and politics (I am not claiming complete abstraction though). One thing which was a laugh however was the prescribed book for a 4th year ethics course provided by the arts department, it was one of the most anti capitalistic books I have ever skimmed through.
Ironic especially when so many graduates simply go straight into coal, oil, gas, iron ore, electricity generation industries and make lots and lots of money from it, through capitalistic profits.
@gerard
Wait… what?
Sebastian is also right. You can tell he’s had dirt under his nails, with all that hard factory labor he had to do to pay his way through that arts/law degree. A true rags to riches story, up by his own bootstraps from a childhood of disadvantage, his doctor mum barely making ends meet under that weight of government red tape. Not that his mum had anything to do with his upbringing, since as you can tell by his comments he’d obviously been completely self-reliant since the day of his birth. Is it too much to expect the rest of society to be more like Sebastian?
Rationalist, did you know it is possible to harness Libertarian garbage into a synthetic gas that is used to generate electricity without emitting greenhouse gases?
Sebastian
Good to see the rednecks are alive and well. I thought they died out.
You dealt with the issues in such a profound way you must be the master of the universe – or is it just your ego.
So why don’t you get off your butt and do something useful for society. Emmigration comes to mind.
@Rationalist
Is that your daily post Senastian? Hmmm wasnt as witty as yesterdays. Anyway – for a left like me (actually Im fairly centrist – I believe some of the left and some of the right – Ill make up my own mind thanks) – even I got a tad pissed off with the socialist alliance hanging around our anti Iraq war peace group (member of gthe local community and kindly housed and listened to by the Uniting Church group) – trying to badger us for our emails and commandering email lists.
Thats a sign, possibly of desperation, not mainstreamism….so why you want to lump all the left into socioalsit alliance type groups shows no subtletdy and no ability to critically understand the left view whatsoever.
It gets tedious to me when right wingers can differentiate their own tribe subgroups (libertarians, and Rothbardians and non Rothbardians etc etc) but not those of the left (they need to braoden their minds – the world isnt black or ahite or left or right…nice if it was that “follow the dots’ simple.
Work out the subleties Sebastiaon and you might go half way to a decent discussion here instead of the usual hackneyed sprays of vitriole which we have all heard before…lots of times
On Correspondents Report just now (podcast seems unavailable at this moment) an ABC reporter said that a CIA agent told her that ‘Al Qaeda’ was planning an even bigger terrorist attack upon the US than 9/11. I didn’t get all of the words, but she said roughly:
Given the gross unbelievable incompetence of the US Government in preventing the 9/11 terrorist attacks (that is if we accept the Official 9/11 Conspiracy Theory and not the alternative Conspiracy Theory) and given that not one single figure in the Administration of President George W Bush was even reprimanded, let alone sacked for that incompetence, would anyone here put their trust in the US Government to prevent the next attack?
If the attack were to succeed (or even if it were not, but were to be thwarted at the last minute) does anyone not see how this could be used as an excuse to completely remove our democratic freedoms, civil liberties and human rights?
@Michael of Summer Hill
Yes, if it is such viable technology then get a loan, build one and make lots of money :).
Technology like this is fantastic, it should be expanded (although I am doubtful that it can be expanded to the size of a coal fired power station at the same price point).
@chris warren
You may not like it but “rednecks” decide elections (depending on the definition). They kept Howard in office for 12 years :).
Rationalist, I’m glad you finally realise that all that crap coming out of you can be put to some public good.
Rationalist my post above wasnt meant for you but for (“Sledgehammer”) Sebastian….
…who really only wants his daily post for a chance to polish his too broadly targetted “anti left Vitriol” and for Sebs information I do happen to agree with some of what the Austrians propose – certainly in terms of how much banks can lend or should lend (and on that I agree more with Rothbard than the evil overlord of Brutopia – he was a wife beater you know..) but I suppose it may disappoint you to hear that Sebastian?? Isnt wife beating a form of regulation?
However I doubt you have developed enough depth in your economics studies yet to be even able to comprehend any centrist or leftist views, let alone agree with parts…
Cant have that now can we?…All those Tony Abbott style one liner insults would go to waste…
Sebastian re your mother having to leave her family medical practice due to “higher regulation costs” – now wasnt it actually de-regulation that permitted corporate non medical types with money to own medical centres…correct me if I am wrong on that?
@Sebastian
Oh and “Sledgehammer Seb”…re your comment about me taking the blog in the pool..you are just jealous because you are in the sin bin without a get of jail free card!
Crikey John, it seems like Rudd & Co had a field day this week getting stuck into the Opposition for being spaced out and making things up on the run.
Rationalist
I think you may have got your history a bit wrong.
Rednecks were not responsible for keeping Howard in place for 12 years. The Liberals were elected by a majority of Australians who then chucked him out when he crossed-over into redneck policies, once in power.
If Howard had pursued Liberal policies more representative of all Australians, he may still be there.
Occasionally rednecks do get into parliament – but they are soon exposed. Hanson was a red haired redneck. Reith has gone. Howard gone. Things are getting better. Hockey and Tuckey (fat chook and old chook) are still there but make for amusing entertainment. I am sure Tuckey would be happier if he went back to his farm to shoot abos, and Hockey is probably dreaming of new ways to kick the unemployed.
The problem with rednecks is that if you ask them a simple question about social problems such as increase debt or increased poverty, they say:
“Shrug, capitalism is working just fine for me thank you very much and I am no Wall Street goon”.
This is what rednecks are like. It appears you can lead a redneck to facts but you can’t make them think.
In general, rednecks will try to disrupt discussion, using the usual tactics, and then get terribly red under the collar when they are exposed.
Anyway the original question still exists – how do rednecks see poverty, wealth disparity and business subsidies, impacting on their understanding of capitalism?
Chris Warren, I am no fan of crazy uncle but what you said of him is idiotic and going too far.
@Michael of Summer Hill
Well, I see the most value in technology like this for use in powering vehicles rather than generating electricity. But nothing is stopping some type of syngas, coal seam gas, gas turbine peaking power plant being utilised.
@Alice
Fair enough, I kind of gathered :). Carry on.
@chris warren
Yee haw, ok! My jib is up! I am a redneck! Lets go watch some NASCAR!
Are many rednecks professionals with valuable and high paying skills? Do many rednecks get paid fantastic amounts of money for their skills by industry?
Looking at Wikipedia:
“Redneck refers to a person who is stereotypically Caucasian and of lower socio-economic status in the United States and Canada, particularly referring to those living in rural areas.”
I am Caucasian, socio-economics covered previously, and I live in the middle of the CBD, not quite rural :).
The mortgage belt kept Howard in power for 12 years, as a clarification (I did make the definition of redneck somewhat variable, since art type cultural elitists tend to make that definition quite wide). The mortgage belt is keeping Rudd in office now, in fact the mortgage belt provides the majorities for every single government in the nation. It is these people who can take it away too :).
Rationalist, you should open your eyes a little bit more and absorb what is going on in the real world. A classic example is the first commercial biorefinery in the world Changing World Technologies which make oil from a variety of waste streams. The future is sustainable development by converting organic waste materials into renewable energy which reduces global warming and improves our quality of life.
@Michael of Summer Hill
How does it improve quality of life?
Rationalist, it is obvious you have very little understanding of economics. But to give you one example, poor air quality is a major cause of asthma and other respiratory conditions which puts pressure on our health system. The benefits of cleaning up the air will correspond to lower health care costs which is a major component of our social system and of course a better quality of life for those now suffering from respiratory conditions. As for Changing World Technologies, they made a few mistakes but their technology works and it is only a matter of time before it is used worldwide to recycle organic waste into renewable energy.
@Michael of Summer Hill
What is wrong with our air quality? I don’t see anything wrong, I don’t think anything is wrong.
Respiratory problems are not an overwhelming concern in Australia.
Rationalist, maybe you should read up on the Sydney Basin to get a better idea. Your ignorance is showing.
you’re an engineering student rationalist – how many people in your classes have asthma. Check out the stats on asthma in Australia and maybe have a look at the etiology with respect to pollution. Here’s a little starter
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14749608
I used to teach masters engineering students algorithms and data structures at UQ – I wouldn’t get too excited about the brownie points for being one.
Michael
Stop crying. Anyone who labels others with such innuendos as “Trot” gets paid back in their own coin.
Then they winge. Tough.
So the question for you, is why comment now? Why are you riding shotgun for others?
It is up to rationalist to sort out its own logic. The latest claim was that he was not a redneck because
“I am Caucasian, socio-economics covered previously, and I live in the middle of the CBD, not quite rural.”
Given that the Cronulla riots were ignited by Caucasian, urban rednecks not rural, this is no proof of anything.
If you see some things as “idiotic” then I assume this is because the face at the bottom of the well is your own.
@nanks
Another individual stressing and worrying about problems that simply do not exist.
@Rationalist
I’m calling you out as a troll rationalist, seek professional help buddy. No hard feelings.
Ok, this is my one post for the day. Keep in mind that I will not be able to respond to your various inane remarks until tommorow.
@gerard
You’re right, I have had “dirt under my nails”. When I moved to Melbourne I did a stint in an asssembly line-type factory to overcome my crippling middle-class guilt, a neurosis-inducing affliction from which the majority of you Quigginites obviously still suffer. I found the actual “working classes” to be very different from the swooned-over idealised mythology that is taught in political science classes by those who prostrate themselves before the Holy Shrine of Gough Whitlam.
The “noble working classes” were a decidedly homophobic and racist bunch who knew no other adjective than the f-word, and who would’ve had no times for the intellectual heart-throbs with their “fancy words” like “proletarian revolution” and “dialectic materialism”. Sure they were pretty poor, but no matter how tough the times they could still scrape together enough to purchase a pack or two of cigarettes a day, and 2-3 cases of beer a week. I’m sure they could save a lot of money if they stopped smoking, cut down on the drinking and took packed lunches to work, but God forbid that the oppressed poor should take any responsibility for their choices, especially when we can just spread somebody else’s wealth around!
As for “paying my way” through my degree, as of yet I haven’t paid for it given the HECS system, which would make me wonder what their excuse is. But then again I’m pretty sure I know the reason. “If only we had more education!” I hear you cry – go ahead, you can recite Les Poésies du Comte de Lautréamont to them all you want, and force-feed them tofu burgers on wholemeal bread all day long, but I personally woudn’t bother.
@chris warren
I’ve met very few bona fide rednecks, let alone any who’ve read Hayek.
@daggett
It is utterly excruciating to listen to the Left continuously arrogate such concepts as “democratic freedoms, civil liberties and human rights” to their own exclusive sphere, while at the same time believing in an omnipotent state that reassigns property rights arbitrarily based on the will of a crude majority.
@Michael of Summer Hill
“Oh yes, rationalist, it is obvious you are not as enlightened as me with respect to economics. In fact, it is obvious that you still base your observations on such primitive concepts as “common sense”. You see, if you cast your net wide enough, you can describe ANYTHING as an externality requiring the intervention and planning of the Omniscient State/Deus Ex Machina” – Michael of Summer Hill (in self-congratulatory tone).
@Alice
I must admit it is frustrating only being able to reply to the vituperations of my critics once a day, but it is my cross to bear for not lavishing obseqious praise on the ideas of your fellow bloggers in the echo-chamber.
I do however, feel your pain with respect to the “Socialist Alliance” – I was horrified when they showed up to a rally against Labor’s mandatory internet censorship legislation. I do also differentiate between the various shades of left, and I do maintain a great deal of affection for the left as represented by the likes of Orwell and Christopher Hitchens. But the Socialist Alliance and its assorted moonbat subsdiaries are easily avoided at university; it is the broader left-wing culture and the taboo attributed to such words as “privatisation” and “globalisation” by even the more lucid students that is pervasive and harder to avoid.
As for Mum’s practice, it is obvious that the burden of higher regulation is more easily absorbed by larger businesses, who can, for instance, employ somebody to specifically deal with all the paper work. That is why big business is often the instigator of more regulatory legislation, which is lapped up by the public at large since they think it will diproportionately affect big business.
By the way, I know very little about Hayek’s private life (I can’t speak for you, but I get my information from sources other than the tabloids). I am glad, however, that you realise printing more money is not the answer to all of life’s problems – keep it up, someone may trickle down on you yet!
@Rationalist
Still living up to your name, I see. It’s great to see an actual proper engineer on here, as opposed to the various “social engineers” who populate this blog. Then again, it’s a sad state of affairs that many view economics as a specialised form of social engineering, and believe they can “push buttons” and “pull strings” to make a more perfect society.
@nanks
Bout time someone did Nanks….phew.
@Rationalist
And nanks – he would only have had to sat on the beach like I did today and see the dirty plume right across the horizon…when twenty years ago I only saw it above the city of Sydney…now? It stretches to Palm beach and beyond. Idiots in here saying there is nothing wrong with the air quality…there is something wrong with them…that cant be fixed easily …its called chronic lying.
@Alice
But that is caused by vehicles, not electricity generators. You go to a coal fired generator (at least the ones in NSW) and you can see nothing coming out of the chimney. The air bubble around Sydney is more discoloured than flue gases from coal fired power stations!
I am all for introducing or even (god forbid) subsidising electric vehicles which are zero emission on the spot. This would significantly reduce the cloud you see and (more importantly) reduce our reliance on foreign oil.
Chris Warren, I know you didn’t mean it but just the thought of it is wrong.
Rationalist, according to Kate Benson, ‘Sydney’s south-west has one of the highest rates of asthma in the state, with almost 2400 sufferers admitted to hospital each year. Air quality is poor because pollutants from traffic, the Port Botany shipping terminal, the Kurnell oil refineries and the international airport are shunted to the western and south-western suburbs by afternoon winds, remaining trapped in the Sydney basin for days’ not to mention the 600 to 1400 people which die each year as a result of the ozone.
@Rationalist
Rationalist – Namks was right – you are the most irrational person here and you need a name change – “Irrationalist”.
@Rationalist
And Iratio – we have the filth on our hands – we keep looking after BIG COAL and stoking the furnaces of disaster while our own people find it increasingly difficult to get drinking water.
@Alice
I have seen the furnaces first hand and for something you describe as a “disaster” they are somewhat compact.
Nobody is having issues getting drinking water. People are likely having issues getting water for their lawn or to wash their cars with a hose.
@Rationalist
Now I know that you are irrational…there are towns across NSW having issues ecuring water …or are yyou blind? Pick any town west of the great dividing range Irratio – google to theit local council websites…whats on all of their agenda’s????
WATER
Just in relation to Sukrit’s little blooper… I read earlier last week (in MX I think) that Obama had suggested that people should be careful about what they say on sites like Facebook, because employers could use such ramblings to justify hiring and firing decisions. And having looked back at earlier comments I’ve made on various blogs (I didn’t exactly cover myself in glory), I’d agree, one should be careful. I’ve been caught before by stories that appealed to my idealogical bent, but when I checked them out, were pure bunkum.
I have been moderated again …twice in one week. Sebastian will have to wait for my reply re his mother’s family medical practice being… gobbled up by the corporate medical centres.
lets try it again..
Sebastian…
Its my brief joyous respite that you are condemned not to be able to reply except for once a day (hmmm you must be close the end of your sentence and you could be out on parole soon..??). Forgive me Sebastian but you do take a rather condescending tone towards workers but I can assure you I have seen ugly racist homophobia in the wealthy as well. Its never pretty but isnt a class determining feature, rest assured.
But …Im not letting you ooff so easily on your Mum’s family medical practice being gobbled up by one of the large corporate medical centres where medicos have been effectively turned in wages slaves and bullied by suits with no medical qualifications (admit it…I have friends who were gobbled up as well – your mother isnt alone),
But Sebastian you say
“it is obvious that the burden of higher regulation is more easily absorbed by larger businesses, who can, for instance, employ somebody to specifically deal with all the paper work.”
Of course it is BUT that is NOT the defining reason why your mother’s medical practice got gobbled up at all. It was de-regulation that did it. It was the permitting of corporates in suits and sometimes sharks in suits who made investments in machinery and medical centres YET WHO HAD NO MEDICAL QUALIFICATIONS to own, operate, hire and fire the real doctors…
But Sebastion what is worse is that I liked smaller family medical practices better and now I have no choice but to sit in the impersonal barn of the local medical centre waiting rooms of I want to see my doctor. I dont like it (and as an old nurse, properly trained, long ago I wince at those jam packed full waiting rooms and worry about cross infection).
Now – the other ugly side of the medical centre debate is the surreptitious and insidious pushing of medical staff (employees now) to perform tests that are not warranted. A radiologist I know told his three “corporate minders” to shove it whenn it became apparent they wanted him to spray X-rays around willy nilly on adults and children so they could get a return on their “capital.” (the damn machine).
Now lets move from there to the case of the pharmacists – and the mootings of de-regulation over the rights to sell pahramaceutical drugs.
We all know the corporates like Woolies are waiting and itching to get their hands on chemist (????family) businesses also…
Expect to see the same thing happen to pharamcists as has happened to your mother’s family medical practice Seb…..gobbled up.
This is the consequence of excessive de-regulation, not regulation. Your claim that your mother “couldnt compete due to excessive regulation” – after the govt had struck the fatal blow by first by de-regulating the industry to allow the not quite as ethical corporates in …is like wailing that you couldnt get a bandaid for a patient already suffering major blood loss.
Its not all black and white Seb (regulation Vs de-regulation). If you dont mind I dont need that sort of trickling down and neither, I dare say, did your mother.
My condolences Sebastian. Your anthropological survey of a Melbourne “assembly line-type factory” was obviously a highly traumatic experience for somebody of such refined breeding. Hopefully you won a few of the poor brutes over to Hayek and von Mises during your time there, and perhaps even sliced off a few of your own fingers to protest the Marxist tyranny of workplace health and safety regulations. I am surprised however to find out that you didn’t earn enough to pay your way through university, and that you have been sucking on the nanny state’s HECS teat this whole time. Disappointing. Surely you could have just shrugged atlas and paid up-front like the rest of us rugged individuals? Or at least taken out a loan from a private financial institution? Doesn’t it just make your blood boil to think of all the interest payments that the Big Four is missing out on after being “crowded out” of funding your education?
Interesting to observe the different public attention to young Australian and Dutch adventurers attempting age records in round-the-world sailing efforts. The Dutch stepped in and stopped their 13 year old, effectively making her a ward of the state to thwart her parents. The 16 year old from Queensland is gung-ho for going ahead despite colliding with a ship and the public response is generally ‘you-bewdy’. The ship was to blame for not stopping and presumeably not keeping a proper watch. But even in the wee small hours of the morning the solo sailor bears some responsibility particularly in shipping channels off Moreton Bay.
One of those gung-ho for her effort is yachting adventurer, Don MacIntyre. Nowhere in the media references have I seen acknowledgement that MacIntyre sells sailing equipment. He is more than just another Aussie adventurer and the media should be asking if he has a vested interest in this venture beyond the hope of the rest of us that she survives this quest.
I read on the weekend that the West Atlas Oil Spill now covers nearly 6000Km2. The company, PTTEP Australasia says it should have the spill under control within four weeks.
This is very disappointing. Where’s the idea of turning a crisis into an opportunity. Since the spill can be seen from space, why not use ships and booms to fashion it into a shape like the COMPANY LOGO. They could have the world’s biggest ad …
Big signs can be in the ocean as well as the skies — a little dye and you can get out the the good oil
@Fran Barlow
Fran….as cynical as moi!
Crikey John, it seems like the ‘truth’ is getting up the noses of the spaced out Federal Coalition. But the truth is, if the Coaltion stops telling porkies about Labor, then Labor will stop telling the truth about them.
Struth John, whilst the Federal Coalition are whistling dixie Labor just gets on with the job of governing Australia. The ‘truth’ is the Gorgon joint venture is now reality and expected to generate some 300 billion Australian dollars not to mention the 10,000 direct and indirect jobs during the construction phase, and some 3,500 direct and indirect jobs throughout the project’s lifespan. Thumbs up Labor.
@Fran Barlow
Have you worked in PR at some point? That’s just the sort of thing they’d think of! 🙂
@Donald Oats
Yes Don…and PTTEP could use Fran’s suggestion with a slogan underneath “PTTEP – the company that really makes a mark.”
or perhaps, Alice oil’s well that ends well.
Haha …Fran..thats a laugh…talk about black oil humour eh? What else can we do but laugh. In fact its a barrel of laughs!!