Another section of my book-in-progress, looking at the failure of the trickle-down hypothesis. Comments and criticism welcome as always.
Refuted doctrines
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Failure
Although the trickle-down hypothesis never had much in the way of supporting evidence, empirical testing was difficult because its proponents never specified the time period over which the benefits of growth were supposed to percolate through to the poor. But, just as the crises of the 1970s marked the end of the Bretton Woods era, the global financial crisis marks the end of the era of finance-driven market liberalism. To the extent that any assessment of the distributional effects of market liberal policies will ever be possible, it is possible now.
The trickle-down theory can be examined using the tools of econometrics. But, at least for the US, no such sophisticated analysis is required. The raw data on income distribution shows that households in the bottom half of the income distribution gained nothing from the decades of market liberalism. Although apologists for market liberalism have offered various arguments to suggest that the raw data gives the wrong impression, none of these arguments stand up to scrutiny. All the evidence supports the commonsense conclusion that policies designed to benefit the rich at the expense of the poor have done precisely that.
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The US since 1970
US experience during the decades of neoliberalism gives little support for this view. In the period since the economic crisis of the early 1970s, US GDP has grown solidy, if not as rapidly as during the Keynesian postwar boom. More relevantly to the trickle-down hypothesis, the incomes and wealth of the richest Americans has grown spectacularly. Incomes at the 5th percentile of the income distribution doubled and those for the top 0.1 per cent quadrupled
By contrast, the gains to households in the middle of the income distribution have been much more modest. Between 1973 (the last year of the long postwar expansion) and 2008, median household income rose from $45 000 to just over $50 000, an annual rate of increase of 0.4 per cent.
For those at the bottom of the income distribution, there have been no gains at all. Real incomes for the lower half of the distribution have stagnated. The same picture emerges if we look at wages. Median earnings for full-time year-round male workers have not grown since 1974. For males with high school education or less, real wages have actually declined.
One result has been that the proportion of households living below the poverty line [1]<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>, which declined drastically during the postwar Keynesian era has remained essentially static since 1970, falling in booms, but rising again in recessions.
The proportion of Americans below this fixed poverty line fell from 25 per cent in the late 1950s to 11 per cent in 1974. <a href=”http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf”>Since then it has fluctuated, reaching 13.2 per cent in 2008</a>, a level that is certain to rise further as a result of the financial crisis and recession now taking place. Since the poverty line has remained unchanged, this means that the incomes accruing to the poorest 10 per cent of Americans have actually fallen over the last 30 years.
These outcomes are reflected in measures of the numbers of Americans who lack access to the basics of life: food, shelter and adequate medical care.
In 2008, 49.1 million Americans live in households classified as ‘food insecure’, meaning that they lacked access to enough food to fully meet basic needs at all times due to lack of financial resources. 17.3 million people lived in households that were considered to have “very low food security,” a USDA term (previously denominated “food insecure with hunger”) that means one or more people in the household were hungry over the course of the year because of the inability to afford enough food. This number had doubled since 2000, and has almost certainly increased further as a result of the recession. http://www.frac.org/html/hunger_in_the_us/hunger_index.html
The number of people without health insurance has risen steadily over the period of market liberalism, both in absolute terms and as a proportion of the population, reaching a peak of 46 million or 15 per cent of the population. Among the insured, an increasing proportion are reliant on government programs. The traditional model of employment-based private health insurance, which was developed as part of the New Deal, and covered most of the population during the Keynesian era, has been eroded to the point of collapse. At the time of writing, it remains to be seen whether Congress will pass legislation to extend health insurance to the entire population.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthins/hlthin08.html
Homelessness is almost entirely a phenomenon of the era of market liberalism. During the decades of full employments, homelessness was confined to a tiny population of transients, mostly older males with mental health and substance abuse problems. In 2007, 1.6 million people spent time in homeless shelters, and about 40 per cent of the homeless population were families with children. And this was actually an improvement – homelessness is one of the few social problems where policy interventions have been sustained and at least partially successful in the US.
In summary, the experience of the US in the era of market liberalism has been as thorough a refutation of the trickle-down hypothesis as can reasonably be imagined. The well off have become better off, and the rich have become super-rich. But despite impressive technological progress (the most striking elements due, as we have seen, to the public and non-profit sectors) those in the middle of the income distributions have struggled to stay in place, and those at the bottom have actually become worse off in crucial respects.
Naturally, there have been plenty of attempts to deny the evidence presented above, or to argue that things are not as bad as they seem. Some of these attempts can be dismissed out of hand. Among the most popular and the silliest, is the observation that even the poor now have more access to consumer goods, such as televisions and refrigerators than they had in the past. For example, Cox and Alm in their book Myths of Rich and Poor observe that n spite of the rise in inequality a poor household in the 1990’s was more likely than an average household in the 1970’s to have a washing machine, clothes dryer, dishwasher, refrigerator, stove, color television, personal computer, or telephone. ”
The common feature of all the items listed in this quote is that their price has fallen dramatically relative to to the general price level. This means that even if incomes were exactly the same as in 1970 we would expect to see a big increase in consumption of these items. And, obviously, if these items have become relatively cheaper, others, such as health care have become relatively dearer. Unsurprisingly, we find that it is in access to health care E[2] that poor and middle class households have become worse off over time.
There are some adjustments that should be made to the data, and make the picture look a little better than suggested by the statistics quoted above.
Household size has decreased, mainly due to declining birth rates. The most appropriate measure of household size for the purpose of assessing living standards is the number of “equivalent adults” derived from a formula that takes account of the fact that children cost less to feed and clothe than adults and that two or more adults living together can do so more cheaply than adults in separate households.The average household contained 1.86 equivalent adults in 1974 and 1.68 equivalent adults in 2007 (my calculations on <a href=”http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/hh6.xls”>US census data</a>). Income per equivalent adult rose at an annual rate of 0.7 per cent over this period.
In earnings terms, women have done a little better than men, with median earnings for full-time year-round workers rising by about 0.9 per year over this period.<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span> Relatedly, the main factors sustaining growth in incomes for American households outside the top 20 per cent has been an increase in the <a href=”http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2007/el2007-33.html”>labour force participation of women</a> and a decline in household savings. Over the period since 1999, consumption financed by borrowing against home equity has been the main factor offsetting stagnant or declining median household incomes.
Finally, until the 1990s, the consumer price index took inadequate account of changes in product quality, so the decline in real wages was overstated somewhat. The Boskin Commission introduced changes to the CPI which, not incidentally, reduced the cost of adjsuting Social Security and other welfare payments for inflation. So, while the stagnation of the 1970s and 1980s might be overstated, that of the 1990s and 2000s is not.
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The bankruptcy boom
The failure of the trickle-down approach has been even more severe in relation to consumer finance. The idea that increasing income inequality was unimportant when households could borrow to finance growing consumption was never defensible. The gap between income and consumption had to be filled by a massive increase in debt. With sufficiently optimistic assumptions about social mobility (that low-income households were in that state only temporarily) and asset appreciation (that the stagnation of median incomes would be offset by capital gains on houses and other investments)these increases in debt could be made to appear manageable, but once asset prices stopped rising they were shown to be unsustainable.
In the US context, these contradictions have been resolved for individual households by a massive increase in financial breakdowns. Until 2005, this mainly took the form of a steady increase in bankruptcy, to the point where, as John Edwards pointed out in 2003, Americans were <a href=”https://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2003/11/26/bankruptcy-and-divorce/”>more likely to go bankrupt than to get divorced</a>. Restrictive reforms introduced at the behest of the credit card industry produced a dramatic drop in bankruptcy (in part, the lagged counterpart a massive upsurge in 2003 and 2004 as people rushed to get in under the old rules). From 2006, onwards, bankruptcy rates resumed their upward trend, reaching 1.1 million per year in 2008 and appearing likely to match or exceed pre-reform levels in 2009.
In normal times the failure of bankruptcy reform, and the renewed surge in bankruptcy would have been a major issue. But in the crisis of 2008 and 2009, the upward trend has been overshadowed by foreclosures on home mortgages. During the boom, when overstretched householders could normally sell at a profit and repay their debts, foreclosures were rare. From 2007 onwards, however, they increased dramatically, initially among low-income ‘subprime’ borrowers but spreading ever more broadly. <a href=”http://www.realtytrac.com/ContentManagement/pressrelease.aspx?ChannelID=9&ItemID=5681&accnt=64847″>2.3 million houses were affected by foreclosure action in 2008</a>. In hard-hit areas of California, more than 5 per cent of houses went into foreclosure in a single year.
The myth of trickle down was sustained, in large part, by the availability of easy credit. Now that the days of easy credit are gone, presumably for a long time to come, reality may reassert itself.
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Econometric studies
The relationship between inequality and economic growth has been the subject of a vast number of econometric studies, which have, as so often with econometric studies, yielded conflicting results. Early studies focused on the relationship between initial levels of inequality and subsequent levels of growth. These studies consistently found a negative relationship between inequality and growth. On the other hand, increases in inequality appeared to be favorable to growth.
It is perhaps, not surprising that the initial impact of an increase in inequality should be favorable to economic growth. For example, if tax rates on high-income earners are reduced, they are likely to spend less money and resources on low-productivity investments designed to minimise tax. More importantly, perhaps, in the late 20th century, growth in inequality was closely associated with financial deregulation and the growth of the financial sector. The short-term effects of financial deregulation have almost everywhere been favorable, while the negative consequences take years or even decades to manifest themselves. So, it is unsurprising to observe a positive correlation between changes in inequality and changes in economic growth rates in the short term and medium term.
It is only relatively recently that studies of this kind of explicitly examined the trickle-down hypothesis. Perhaps the most directly relevant work is that of Dan Andrews and Christopher Jencks of the Kennedy School of Government at ANU, and Andrew Leigh of the Australian National University who ask, and attempt to answer, the question ‘Do Rising Top Incomes Lift All Boats’. Andrews, Jencks and Leigh , find no systematic relationship between top income shares and economic growth in a panel of 12 developed nations observed for between 22 and 85 years between 1905 and 2000. After 1960, there is a small, but statistically significant relationship between changes in inequality and the rate of economic growth. However, the benefits to lower income groups flow through so slowly that, as income inequality increases, they may never catch up the ground they lose initially.
Andrews, Jencks and Leigh simulate some results for the US suggesting that even assuming that the increased inequality in the US after 1970 produced permanently higher economic growth, those outside the top 10 per cent of the income distribution would not have gained enough to offset their smaller share of total income over the 30 years to 2000.
And, as Andrews, Jencks and Leigh note the situation is much worse when the distribution of income within the bottom 90 per cent is considered. Households at or below the median income level (that is, those in the bottom half of the income distribution) have lost ground relative to those above the median, even as the population as a whole has lost ground relative to the top 10 per cent. And there is evidence to suggest significant adverse growth effects when inequality between the bottom and middle of the income distribution increases.
More importantly, the financial crisis, which was the inevitable result of the policies that generated the huge growth in US inequality, has wiped out years of income growth and asset accumulation for US households.
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Social mobility
The evidence that the United States, compared to other developed countries, is characterized by highly unequal economic outcomes, and that these outcomes have grown more unequal during the era of market liberalism is undeniable. Of course, that hasn’t stopped people denying it, especially when they are paid to do so, but at least such denials must be presented, in contrarian fashion, as showing that ‘everything you know about income inequality is wrong’. By contrast, the belief that this inequality is offset by high levels of social mobility is widely held in and outside the United States, and reflected in such epithets as ‘land of opportunity’.
In the late 19th century, the US was indeed a land of opportunity compared to the hierarchical societies of Europe, and many believe that this is still the case. But the evidence of international comparative studies is clear. Among the developed countries, the US has the lowest social mobility on nearly all measures, and the European social democracies the highest.
Ron Haskins and Isabel Sawhill of the Brookings Institution found 42% of American men with fathers in the bottom fifth of the income distribution remain there as compared to: Denmark, 25%; Sweden, 26%; Finland, 28%; Norway, 28%; and the United Kingdom, 30%. Other studies, using different measures of mobility, find the same outcome
Moreover, as market liberal policies have become entrenched, social mobility has declined. Not only have the well-off pulled away from the rest of the community in terms of income share, they have managed to pull up the ladder behind them, ensuring that their children have better life-chances than those born to poorer parents.
The evidence suggests that the distinction between equality of outcomes and equality of opportunity, a central theme in market liberal rhetoric, is inconsistent with empirical reality. More equal opportunities make for more equal outcomes, and vice versa.
It’s not hard to see why this should be so. The highly unequal outcomes of market liberal policies are often supposed to be offset by an education system available to all and by laws that prevent discrimination and encourage merit-based employment and promotion.
That might work for one generation, but in the second generation the rich parents will be looking to buy a headstart for their less-able children, for example by sending them to private schools where they will be coached in examination skills and equipped with an old school tie.
One generation more and the wealthy will be fighting to stop their tax dollars back from being wasted on public education systems from which they no longer benefit. Those who remain in the public system will lobby to get their own children into good public schools and ensure that these schools attract and retain the best teachers, benefit from fundraising activity and so on.
Education has traditionally been seen as the most promising route to upwards social mobility. But as inequality has increased, wealthy parents have sought, naturally enough, to secure the best educational outcomes for their children, most obviously through private schooling, expansion of which has been a central demand of market liberals. As a result, both the importance of ability as a determinant of educational attainment, and the importance of educational attainment as a source of social mobility have declined over time. A UK study found that ‘low ability children with high economic status’ (or, in more colloquial terms, the ‘dumb rich’) experienced the largest increases in educational attainment. This is reinforced, particularly in the US, by the increasing segregation of higher education on class lines.
The inequalities are even more evident in higher education. Thanks to scholarship programs, a handful of able students from poor backgrounds make it into Ivy League colleges like Harvard and Yale every year. But they are far outweighed by the mass of students from families in the top 10 per cent of the income distribution who have the financial resources to afford hefty fees the high quality high school education that gives them the grades needed for admission and the cultural capital required to navigate the complex admissions process. And of course, those with old money but less than stellar intellectual resources have their highly effective affirmative action program – the legacy admission system by which the children of alumni gain preferential admission. In the 1998 book The Shape of the River: Long-Term Consequences of Considering Race in College and University Admissions, authors William G. Bowen, former Princeton University president, and Derek Bok, former Harvard University president, found “the overall admission rate for legacies was almost twice that for all other candidates.” If inequality of outcomes is entrenched for a long period, it inexorably erodes equality of opportunity. Parents want the best for their children, and, in a highly unequal society, wealthy parents will always find a way to guarantee their children a substantial headstart.
While education is critical, high levels of inequality naturally perpetuate themselves through other, more subtle channels like health status. Barbara Ehrenreich’s Nickel and Dimed discusses the plight of the uninsured working poor in the United States. While the problem is worse in the US than elsewhere because of highly unequal access to health care, high levels of inequality produce unequal health outcomes even in countries with universal public systems. Children growing up with the poor health that is systematically associated with poverty can never be said to have a truly equal opportunity.
There are other factors at work. A widely dispersed income distribution means that a much bigger change in income is needed to move the same distance in the income distribution, say from the bottom quintile to the middle, or from the middle to the top. So, unequal outcomes represent a direct obstacle to social mobility.
Once you think about the many and various advantages of growing up rich rather than poor, it’s not at all surprising that widening the gap between the rich and the poor should also make it harder for the poor to become rich (or, for that matter, vice versa) so the evidence that, under market liberalism, social mobility is low and declining, should not surprise anyone. On the other hand, it is disappointing, if not surprising, that the myth of equal opportunity continues to be believed so many decades after it has ceased to have a basis in fact.
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The unhealthiness of hierarchies
Some of the most striking evidence against the trickle down hypotheses has come from studies of social outcomes such as health status, crime and social cohesion. Not surprisingly, the poor do worse on most such measures than the rich. More strikingly, though, a highly unequal society produces bad social outcomes even for those in higher income groups, who are better off, in purely monetary terns, than those with a similar relative position in more equal societies. Only for the very well-off do the direct benefits of higher income outweigh the adverse effects of living in an unequal society.
It is commonly thought that, while it is better to be at the top of the hierarchy than at the bottom, there are some offsetting disadvantages, particularly in relation to health. While the poor suffer from lack of access to good medical care and other problems, the rich are supposed to suffer from ‘diseases of affluence’ like heart disease, compounded by the stresses of life at the top. ‘Executive stress’ has become a cliché. So, to some extent there is thought to be a trade-off between health and wealth.
In place of this somewhat comforting picture, Michael Marmot has some disturbing news. People at the top of status hierarchies live longer and have better health than those at the bottom. This is true for a broad range of illnesses and causes of death. Moreover, the effect isn’t confined to the extremes of the distribution. At any point in a status hierarchy, people have, on average, better health than those a little below them and worse health than those a little above them.
Marmot’s work began with a study of British civil servants. The study population is interesting for two reasons. First, it excludes extremes of wealth and poverty. The civil service is not a road to riches, but even the lowest-ranking civil servants are not poor, on most understandings of the term. Second, the public service provides a clear-cut status hierarchy with very fine gradations.
Marmot’s study found, not surprisingly, that senior public servants, at the top of the status hierarchy, were healthier than those at the bottom. More strikingly, he found that, right through the hierarchy, relatively small differences in pay and status were associated with significant differences in life expectancy and other measures of health.
The same finding has been replicated across all sorts of different status hierarchies. As you move from the slums of South-East Washington DC to the leafy suburbs of Montgomery County, 20 miles away, life expectancy rises a year for every mile travelled. Among actors, Academy-award winners live, on average, four years longer than their Oscarless co-stars.
Along the way, Marmot demolishes the myth of executive stress. Despite their busy lives, Type A personalities and so on, senior managers are considerably less likely to die of heart attacks than the workers they order around. This is not a new finding, but the myth is sufficiently tenacious that Marmot needs to spend some time knocking it down yet again.
Marmot, along with others who have studied the problem, concludes that the crucial benefit of high-status positions is autonomy, that is, the amount of control people have over their own lives. Marmot’s analysis is not focused exclusively on autonomy. For example, he has a good discussion of social isolation and its relationship to social status. Nevertheless, his main point concerns autonomy, and this is by far the most interesting and novel feature of the book.
There is a complex web of relationships between health status autonomy, both self-perceived and measured by objective job characteristics. Low levels of autonomy are associated, not only with poorer access to health care, but with more of all the risk factors that contribute to poor health, from homicide to poor diet.
The centrality of autonomy is not, on reflection, all that surprising. Autonomy, or something like it, is at the root of many of the concerns commonly seen as part of notions like freedom, security and democratic participation. When we talk about a free society, for example, we usually have in mind a place in which people are free to pursue a wide range of projects. The distinction between negative and positive liberty, popularised by Berlin goes part of the way towards capturing this point, but a focus on autonomy does better.
The points are clearest in relation to employment. Early on, Marmot debunks the Marxian notion of exploitation (capitalists taking surplus value from workers) and says that what matters in Marx is alienation. He doesn’t develop this in detail, and the point is not new by any means, but he’s spot on here. It’s the fact that the boss is a boss, and not the fact that capitalists are extracting profit, that makes the employment relationship so troublesome. The more bossy the boss, the worse, as a rule is the job. This is why developments like managerialism, which celebrates the bossiness of bosses, have been met with such hostility.
So part of autonomy is not being bossed around. But like Berlin’s concept of ‘negative liberty’, this is only part of the story. Most of the time it’s better to be an employee with a boss than to sell your labour piecemeal on a market that fluctuates for reasons that are totally outside your control, understanding or prediction. This is where a concept of autonomy does better than liberty, negative or positive. To have autonomy, you must be operating in an environment that is reasonably predictable and amenable to your control.
Of course, the environment consists largely of other people. So one way of increasing your autonomy is by reducing that of other people, for example by moving up an existing hierarchy at their expense. Similarly when employers talk about increased flexibility in the workplace, they generally mean an increase in their control over when, where and how their employees do their job. Workers typically experience this as a loss of flexibility in their personal lives. In short, within a given social structure, autonomy is largely a zero-sum good.
But some social structures give more people more autonomy than others, and this is reflected both in average life expectancy and in the steepness or otherwise of status gradients in health. In general, higher levels of inequality on various dimensions are associated with lower average life expectancy and steeper status gradients.
In The Spirit Level, Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett build on Marmot’s work and other statistical evidence to produce a comprehensive case for the proposition that inequalities in income and status have far-reaching and damaging effects on a wide range of measures of social wellbeing, effects that are felt even by those who are relatively high in the income distributions.
Wilkinson and Pickett report two main types of statistical evidence. Following Marmot, they examine social gradients, that is, the relationship between individual outcomes and positions on the social ladder. Here there are two main results. First, in all countries, there is a strong relationship between social outcomes and social rank, much greater than can be explained by income differences alone. Second, greater inequality within a country is associated with a steeper social gradient.
Wilkinson and Pickett also report cross-section studies in which a number of countries, or other jurisdictions such as US states, are compared. The standard statistical approach here is regression analysis, in which differences in social outcomes such as life expectancy are statistically related to inequality levels, in a way that controls for other sources of variation, such as mean income levels. Among the outcome variables considered are measures of life expectancy and health status, crime and measures of ‘social capital’, such as trust.
The results are striking. Wilkinson and Pickett find a strong negative relationship between inequality and measures of social outcomes. The relationship is statistically significant, and undiminished by the inclusion of relevant control variables. [3]This result is, on the whole, unsurprising. If we consider the kinds of social relationships that contribute to hierarchical attitudes, stressful low-status jobs and so on, it seems unlikely that they will variations in income over the course of a few years, or even a few macroeconomic cycles. This is even more obvious in relation to the social outcomes such as life expectancy, it seems clear that they are the product of lifetime experience, rather than current income.
The United States is the obvious outlier in almost all studies of this kind. It is the wealthiest country in the world, the most unequal of the rich countries, and does poorly on a wide range of measures of social wellbeing, from life expectancy to serious crime and even on such objective measures as average height. In some cases, the poor performance primarily reflects the continuing black-white divide. In other cases, however, all but the very richest groups of Americans have worse average outcome than people with a comparable position in the income distribution in more equal countries, even though the average income of the non-Americans in these groups is much lower than that of the corresponding Americans.
Leigh, A. and Jencks, C. (2007), ‘Inequality and mortality: Long-run evidence from a panel of countries’, Journal of health economics, 26(1), 1-24.
Wilkinson, R. and Pickett, K. (2009) The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better, Allen Lane, London.
[1] Unlike most developed countries, the US has a poverty line fixed in real terms, and based on an <a href=”http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/povmeas/papers/orshansky.html”>assessment of a poverty-line standard of living undertaken in 1963</a>.
[2] mergency health care remains generally accessible, and has benefitted from technical progress, which has contributed to declining mortality. But regular health care has become unaffordable for many, with the result that a wide variety of chronic conditions go untreated.
[3] Some other econometric adjustments, such as the inclusion of ‘fixed effects’ do weaken the findings. The interpretation of these adjustments remains controversial.
The difference between us Watchman is the cause and effect sequence plus the solution you offer is most unattractive to women who have no real desire to return to barefoot and pregnant – just as those women who are barefoot and pregnant are anxious to leave this state as soon as possible. What is clear from the trickle down chapter is that this is far harder for some than others.
@Ernestine Gross
says to Watchman
” I put it to you that men who don’t go to work because they don’t love their children (the corollary to your statement) are men who are not desirable mating partners. (It would be most helpful to women if those you have in mind would wear a sign on their forehead signalling their motivation.)
ROFL Ernestine…it certainly would be helpful!
@watchman
says “Where we seem to disagree is on whether the nuclear family deserves to be strengthened by policy. That’s fine and an argument for another day.”
Not its not Watchman – its a fine argument for right now.
You wont get that one past women. We are not going back there to when it was hard to disssolve a marriage, when we had to resign from jobs on marriage or childbirth. One of your little masters (no doubt) JH tried everything he possibly could to wind back feminism…like putting ineffectual woman of status into the office for the status of women, wiping out other feminist organisations and really putting the boot into single mothers with welfare to work initiatives so they would latch on to the nearest male for pure survival reasons no matter how bad he was? Meanwhile all those children suffer – that is the ugliest part of Howards gift to women… oh and then there was the rewarding of middle and upper middle and wealthy class nuclear families.
JH’s attitude “See ladies, if you just tow the line and get paired off promptly Ill make your life better for you but if you dont…Ill make your life hell”.
Its not half obvious his ego and ambitions for Australian families lay in the 1950s with Janet running around fetching his slippers and a cup of tea.. nice if you can afford it and he can. Except you dont get it by kicking women which is exactly what Watchman is trying to do here…
put the club down slowly Watchman. You are outnumbered here.
Strengthen the economy with policy so its not so unequal (broader spread of income needed) that it takes two to pay the bills and give women affordable childcare and and access to better public services and listen to what people are saying here…like Nanks Watchman …”At a personal level I’d love to have been rich enough to be a stay at home parent.”
I hear you Nanks. Watchman doesnt and if he thinks women are going back to the days of male oppression, homebody expectations and workplace stifling, he can think again. We are still in the process of clearing out the deadwood attitudes, like his. We are not finished yet and it is far from over.
In Watchmans defence, I’d say that even someof the right wing parties are becoming a wake up to neolib globalisation, if a conversation I participated in at Bartletts blog recently is any indication.
I think Watchman himself said that if pressures are not taken off people doing the family thing, it can’t work, which actually parallels most of the sentiment expressed by most others here.
I think his failure is in failing to recognise that governments are servants of market theology, not its masters.
And neolib imperatives concerning the labour markets, etc are not concerned with the sorts of personal or socio cultural consequences the thread has been discussing- as far as they are concerned, that’s our problem, if they think about it all. They are concerned at maximising the success of a given business, even if that means putting lots of locals out of work to offshore to Asian sweatshops, say. But people still swallow the soft soap about our “Jetsons” earthly paradise.
Finally, as a person into middle age, I really think Australians themselves make rods for their own back, with unthinking, untrammelled “pay it off on the never-never” consumerism of the sort we’ll have to witness again over this year’s Xmass rush. There comes a time, surely when people must stop blaming “capitalism”, or “the government”, or”socialism, for their own lack of discipline and imagination.
When I was young, the oldsters used to talk about “making their own fun”, back in more austere times. My gran used to tell me about yabbying with a bit of string on the irrigation channels around Shepparton, for example. Nowadays people panic at the though of a ten minute stroll up the street to the shops without having a car to drive to them there (walking, what’s that?).
From this point, refer back to yet another marvellous summary from Jill Rush, earlier in this thread.
“You wont get that one past women. We are not going back there to when it was hard to disssolve a marriage…”
Marriage-minded men of the West take note. It is no longer legally possible to make a binding agreement with a woman to start a family together. The above statement is a completely typical attitude and one of the key pillars of feminism. Your wife-to-be sees it as a right to reneg on her responsibilities to you without consequence. She will also see it as morally consistent that you will be forced to meet your responsibilities to her, especially financial. And she has the enforcement machinery of the state to back her up.
She will gain all the benefits of a husband without being required to offer anything in return. You gaining the benefits of having a wife and family are only at her whim.
Any man who signs a marriage certificate today is a fool.
These two are especially for you Alicia, my friend and like minded soul sister (who also happens to love the blues)… and for you too Paul W – its a small tribute to two great wild (and gorgeous) women….its Xmas – lets have some music!
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=3612409
Watchman, you are courting disaster!
.You are going to get drowned in an orgy of vitriol about wife beating, financial mean-ness and males absconding in droves from their side of the bargain, etc.
Don’t you see?
The system changed itself, it evolved into something different to what it was when we were growing up.
Marriage has trouble working because it doesn’t fit in with the modern economy, regardless of whether it ever worked as a mechanism for effective transfer of values from adult to kids, previously. As folk above have pointed out, the system is not prepared to input revenues into people and families any more. The drive for profits from the corporate sector has forced government to reduce taxation and hence spending on programs on health, pre schools, education etc.
The price we’ve all paid for material security- ourselves- is the weakening of those circumstances that force people to seek each other out rather than retreat into isolate, unfullfilling, consumerist fantasy.
Alice, many thanks for gifty. Am out for a while and look forward to catching up when I get back.
Don’t be too sore at Watchman…
@paul walter
How can I help it??? – he thinks sending women back to the kitchen by force of legislation is going to solve his lonely problems…..Paul, most women will move to get out of the kitchen fast when the bills are coming through the door…who thinks women wont fight to keep their families well and safe??..if it means we need more money, we need it (we all need it) and we will work, but when we are working to get it, we sure as hell dont want any handicaps or discrimination (many are already overloaded working two jobs. Lord it aint easy!).
Sending us back into the home and the nuclear family by force of legislation, wont solve any of these problems. It wont keep us there. Watchman isnt thinking straight.
Plus, more importantly, we will not go back (we will not back down) unless we can afford it and its safe to do so and we want to, as Nanks indicated.
Thats up to the economy and how its run.
@watchman
says
“Any man who signs a marriage certificate today is a fool.”
I dont know what you are worried about. Lots of people dont.
@watchman
also says
“Your wife-to-be sees it as a right to reneg on her responsibilities to you without consequence. She will also see it as morally consistent that you will be forced to meet your responsibilities to her, especially financial. And she has the enforcement machinery of the state to back her up.”
Get a grip watchman.
a) It is the right of both parties to leave an unhappy marriage. Its not woman reneging or man reneging. Both are capable of reneging without the other parties consent.
b) No one makes you responsible for “her” but you are responsible for your own offspring and you are responsible financially for a division of assets with her if she has been using her unpaid labour and you have all the super while she has been doing the laundry, shopping, childminding and cooking. What do you expect? Get over it.
c) She and he has the enforcement machinery of the state to back “them” up where kids are involved. Get over that as well.
“…he thinks sending women back to the kitchen by force of legislation is going to solve his lonely problems.. ”
Ha ha. I was waiting for that one. Feminist argument strategy 101…
Step 1: Act outraged and insulted.
Step 2: Accuse opponent of sexual inadequacy.
Step 3: This step is still under development.
Stop flattering yourselves ladies. Convincing modern women to provide company and benefits is not difficult. Save your emotional manipulation for naive baby-boomers and Disney-movie-loving virgins.
“It is the right of both parties to leave an unhappy marriage. Its not woman reneging or man reneging. Both are capable of reneging without the other parties consent.”
But the reneging man must leave his wallet and children at the door. It all sounds so fair!
That’s enough. Apply the DNFTT rule.
@watchman
Here little troll…. What exactly is your problem with feminism? – Havent you heard of shared care or is it your wallet you care most about? I dont recall accusing anyone of sexual inadequacy here…you raised that one. Im not as outraged as you clearly are.Why not go somewhere where you can relive your past powers with other disgruntled types. Pass your wallet on the way out and Ill give it to your ex. Sounds like she could do with some help.
“Why not go somewhere where you can relive your past powers with other disgruntled types.”
Step 2.5: Step 2 is your most powerful weapon. If it is ineffective first time, try again. Rinse. Repeat.
@watchman
I just cant help myself with this troll…it was obviously ineffective the first time so Watchman, lets run Step 2.5 again shall we?
Open your mouth wide…..say ahhh…. Ill just pop the feminism word in….its not that hard is it? Try not to gag or choke.
If that fails Rinse and repeat. Eventually you will swallow it.
@SJ
SJ I know…I know…..but how about TTNTTT (try to blow up the trolls?)…..hmm maybe I should go eat breakfast.
Anyway – this discussion is waste entirely of JQs brilliant thread here and we are now wildly off track…..of interest in this article, to me, are the pat ideologies associated with trickle down proponents…
“Among the most popular and the silliest, is the observation that even the poor now have more access to consumer goods, such as televisions and refrigerators than they had in the past. For example, Cox and Alm in their book Myths of Rich and Poor observe that n spite of the rise in inequality a poor household in the 1990’s was more likely than an average household in the 1970’s to have a washing machine, clothes dryer, dishwasher, refrigerator, stove, color television, personal computer, or telephone. ”
This has not been helped by the rise of the ubiquitous US sitcoms – ever noticed their sitcom houses are chock full of expensive versions of those very items people want now. The reach of subliminal marketing into people’s wish lists. I was astonished, Xmas shopping at JB Hifi yesterday………the queues of the young to pay stretched from till at back to front door…imported electronic gadgets. Is it the old high apc of lower income earners we see at work? (not in all cases obviously but I do wonder). If you cant quite afford your rent or mortgage then relatively cheap electronic gadgets may provide temporary amelioration from the burden. Does the status once provided by a nice house with a nice garden in a nice street get replaced with ie “have you seen our new entertainment system”?.
Then the other stock standard is “wealthy executives deserve the pay they get because they work so hard”….to the point of exhaustion and heart attacks presumably, given the link to type As.
This would appear to be another nonsense. I would suggest many CEOS actually do not work that hard, have an army of interpreters, and strategic analysers, are mostly figureheads and actually lead very closeted and comfortable lives. When I worked for Mayne Nickless it was well known the executives might not turn up until Midday when they were entertained with very fine lunches and fine wines for most of the afternoon in the grand corporate boardroom in Melbourne, and went on numerous overseas trips staying at ultra exclusive resorts…thanks to Marmot for his mythbusting contribution…there is no trade off between wealth and health. I would also suggest there is little tradeoff between wealth and leisure time for many executives at the top of the income distribution.
the whitehall study and various follow ups would seem to challenge the idea that executives are doing it tough – absurd though the idea is anyway.
http://tinyurl.com/yjd85me
I’d be only too happy to try life without bullying alpha types (male or female) running the show. Check it out for a few thousand years then evaluate.
@nanks
LOL nanks “Check it out for a few thousand years’
@paul walter
On this point you made about people “making their own fun and not indebting themselves to the never never’ its interesting to note that hire purchase didnt really take off until the 1950s…add returned soldiers, immigration, getting over WW2 baby boom, higher than usual inflation which makes repayments cheaper relatively, houses, motor cars, hoovers victa lawnmowers, kelvinator washing machines….was it there we find the source of the never never?
Well, it never never left and got bigger and uglier…
Yep Alice. Am a baby boomer (lowers head) meself and remember the brave new world of the black and white telly era very well.
Remember as a kid, watching a very early 4 Corners on the New Guinea, “Cargo Cult”, where the natives were told to wait for the great silver bird last seen flying about during WW2 in the form of a USAF Douglas Dakota cargo plane, returning with Christ, bringing all the Western consumer goodies.
Trinkets for the natives, a passable analogy for western consumer capitalism in macro?
@Alice
Alice, thank you so much for these youtube gifts.
To know these two women’s voices so wel, yet to see for the first time still and moving pics of them performing as beautiful passionate young women, words cannot describe the pleasure.
Children and midwives both of feminism and so much more, these goddesses contribute so much to the fact that feminism today, while hugely assaulted, twisted and tamed has not been able to be put back into the box and quashed.
To their – and our – sweet sorrowful joy, loss and success!
@Alicia
Alicia….so far still to go. Will this battle for equality ever be won? Arent they gorgeous those women? Just beautiful. Do you or I need the meaness or greed I see in here when we can just listen to them and get away from all that?
@Alice
It will be won Alice. We are invincible as well as gorgeous.
“In The Spirit Level, Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett build on Marmot’s work and other statistical evidence to produce a comprehensive case for the proposition that inequalities in income and status have far-reaching and damaging effects on a wide range of measures of social wellbeing, effects that are felt even by those who are relatively high in the income distributions. ”
From http://andrewleigh.com/?p=2400
Leigh’s paper looks like complete rubbish. He doesn’t give any t-stats for those graphs, but just on an eyeball test, the results are not significant. t is much less than 2. In the health outcome/GDP graphs in the paper (they don’t appear in the blog post), they purport to show that outcomes decrease after a certain level of GDP/capita. It’s not a significant result, and Leigh should have recognised that it was only due to the piss-poor health outcomes in the US.
The results look to be entirely spurious.
What about trickle down welfare economics? The govt collects taxes and uses it to expand govt bureacracy and buy votes from special interest groups. Eventually (maybe), what is left goes to those who need it the most.
Leigh’s paper can be found here.
I challenge anyone qualified in econometrics to examine Figure 2, and agree with the fitted curves.
Yes Jarrah – and lets not selctively quote and cherry pick Leigh to twist things your way huh? Sneaky and dishonest to cut and snip like that – the quote is below…at least make it real rather than cutting bits an pasting together to suit yourself. There was a sentence you left out.
Leigh says
“I’m about as anti-inequality an economist as you’ll find. But my own empirical work on the issue has convinced me that when you look at within-country changes, the picture that emerges is very different to what you see when you look at a snapshot across countries over time. For example, it’s certainly true that in unequal countries, lifespans are shorter and infant mortality is higher.”
What don’t you post on his blog, then let us know what he says?
Sorry: “Why don’t you post on his blog, then let us know what he says?”
SJ – Figure 2 is weird, it seems to be an argument for equality producing better health outcomes. eg Japan and Scandanavia do well and the US is an obvious outlier.
Alice’s quote makes this point as well.
Pretty weird, given the title of the paper.
Done. If he replies, you can read it yourself.
Boy, that Andrew Leigh quote is a grisly piece of work.
@Alice
Sneaky and dishonest? I gave an honest summary. YOU are the one being sneaky and dishonest, by selectively leaving out important sentences:
“For example, it’s certainly true that in unequal countries, lifespans are shorter and infant mortality is higher. But here’s what you get if you compare changes in inequality with changes in mortality (from a paper with Tim Smeeding and Christopher Jencks). [graph] Yup, the graph slopes up. In other words, countries that experienced big increases in inequality saw bigger improvements in health than those where inequality stayed stable or fell. In most cases, the effect isn’t significant, but the data certainly don’t support the hypothesis that rising inequality harms population health.”
Anyone can see that I have reported Leigh’s findings correctly, while you have cherry-picked the only sentence that could possibly support your blinkered worldview, without including the part immediately afterwards that starts with “But…”! Don’t you think that was a freakin’ clue that his point was not yet complete? You essentially truncated his thought halfway through! And you have the gall to call ME sneaky and dishonest!
@iain
“Figure 2 is weird, it seems to be an argument for equality producing better health outcomes. eg Japan and Scandanavia do well and the US is an obvious outlier.”
As Leigh quotes Kay as saying: “Japan, rated one of the most equal, has long life expectancy, a small prison population and low levels of violence. Within Europe the Scandinavian countries are generally distinguished by high levels of both equality and social performance. These observations probably account for most of Wilkinson and Pickett’s findings.”
I don’t have the technical skill to answer SJ’s questions, but I look forward to Leigh’s response.
@SJ
Actually SJ – Im inclined to agree on this one. This one looks like a re run of an earlier paper by someone else and perhaps not a convincing argument in the first version. Just because a stats pack can lay a line doesnt mean its a good fit. Diagram two is all over the shop and most of diagram three as well. Compare the same countries in diagram 2 a) and b).
Just because the stats pack can fit a curve through a maze at the press of a button doesnt mean we should believe it exists. In diagram three for the three panels on life expentancy (LE) in this paper Leigh states “for all countries where inequality rose more, life expectancy rose more”. The same claim is made about the infant mortality diagrams below. I dont think thats a clear call and I dont see that. They have also only examined IM and LE against either the Gini or selective Percentile ratios for two decades – the 90/50 (top to middle) and the 50/10 (middle to bottom) but why not examine the 90/10 ratio or the 90/20? ie top to bottom. Are these ratios an adequate measure?. Also three or four OECD countries are omitted and when added back there is not a positive relationship except for the 50/10.
But none of this excuses Jarrahs selective usage of Leigh.
@Alice
“But none of this excuses Jarrahs selective usage of Leigh.”
Alice, you’re being a hypocrite, as I’ve conclusively demonstrated. Sadly, I don’t expect an apology for your slander.
@Jarrah
Even Leigh is quoted as saying..in his review on the Spirit Level (your link at 27)
“For example, it’s certainly true that in unequal countries, lifespans are shorter and infant mortality is higher.”
Yet he apparently finds and argues the reverse in this paper Health and Economic Inequality – see Sjs link at 30.
Bit odd.
In a meta analysis of observational studies specifically done in this area on the links between equality and health Kondo et al find
“income equality is associated with a moderate excess risk of premature mortality and poor self rated health”
and
“if the inequality mortality relation is truly causal then the population attributable fraction suggests that upwards 1.5 million deaths (9.6% of adult mortality) could be averted in 30 countries by levelling the Gini co-efficient below the threshold value of 0.3”
Last page
Im inclined to have more faith in this work, because of the meta analysis aspect. It examines a large number of studies that specifically address this area.
Link is here
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/reprint/339/nov10_2/b4471
Inequality as measured in the studies seems so crude a measure I can’t find much value in the exercise in terms of public health. For example, the gini measure of inequality does not take into account wealth and does not take into account egality – yet both wealth and egality seem to underly to significant degrees the framing of the problem and interpretation of the results in both papers mentioned.
Regardless, what outcomes could arise in terms of public health policy improvement? – We already know about poverty and health with greater confidence, we already know about stress and health with greater confidence. In other words, more direct studies would be of more value.
I don’t think there is any actual theory of trickle-down economics in economic history. But some of us have the theory of “funnel-up” economics. In my rendering of this theory any financial system short of 100%-backing, growth-deflation will have a situation where wealth is being “funnelled upwards” towards the people who are already wealthy. Plus the already wealthy will likely have sorted any number of very subtle advantages that allow their money to make money while they sleep.
On the alleged libertarian side of things some thought has gone into our rights as consumers. But almost no thought has gone into the little blokes right as a producer. The right to get out of the proletarian mega-pool and get into a business of ones own. The alleged libertarian set seem to be utterly flippant about that side of things. And this bias towards the big corporations and against the sole trader, while it may be a small thing, small insipid forces that work around the clock for long periods of time will have dramatic effects.
I would argue that over a period of (lets say) five decades, this small bias against the sole trader and in favour of the big corporates can lead to essentially a rigged market at both ends. Not enough people getting top executive business experience in their twenties to compete down the salaries of this new managerial class overlords….. At the same time too many people in the proletarian pool, leading to stagnant wages at the bottom end.
It may be only a subtle bias. And it may take a long time to cause a lot of trouble. But if we bring in the time factor it can be all the difference between utter cronyism and the just society.
@Jarrah
So you agree that figure 2 is clear evidence that more equal countries produce better health outcomes?
@nanks
Nanks – the gini itself can be an unreliable measure depending on what it is being related to – even Kondo notes that the Gini can be large (more inequality) when you have large numbers of affluent or when you have a large number of poor. It is also insensitive to changes in certain areas of the distribution.
Here’s another paper that may be worth dissecting:
Click to access cj22n2-5.pdf
Summary:
The incomes of the poor are intimately linked to the incomes of the rich. While the relationship is not one-for-one, it is notable. The incomes of the poor rise more with increases in the incomes of the rich than vice versa. More importantly, the incomes of the rich have a discernable effect in reducing the UN’s conventional measure of poverty. Notably, growth in the incomes of the rich reduces the effects of poverty proportionally more than is the case for increases in the incomes of the poor. In addition, economic growth clearly reduces poverty. The results for sub-Saharan Africa are not appreciably different from the rest of the world.
The term “trickle-down” is a misnomer: growth actually entails a cascade, not a trickle. The quality of growth may be important, but growth itself is the surest way to reduce human deprivation around the world.
@Cynic
Utter crap Cynic.
On the CATO institute that published this piece of rubbish (even the reference list is developmentally delayed)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute
Freaking libertarians…they keep coming aout of the woodwork.
Go home Cynic and take this termite infested piece of faked rubbish publication with you.
Its an insult to real academics. Are we dealing with children? Looks that way.
@Alice
Atlas shrugged! The poor ruthlessly exploit the rich. So it has ever been. If the rich stopped working so hard we would all starve. Lets hear it for the rich from whom all bounty flows. Thanks Cato, and all the other loony libertarian think tanks for putting us right on this one.
@Alice
“Its an insult to real academics.” Well, maybe. The article was published in Cato Journal, and according to the link you supplied, the Cato Journal (and Regulation) are peer-reviewed academic journals.
So why is the article crap?