There’s not much to say about the riots that hasn’t already been said, but one point that hasn’t been stressed enough is the small numbers of people actively involved. The crowd at Cronulla on Sunday was large, but it seems that only a couple of hundred were engaged in violence. Similarly, forty car loads of thugs were said to have been involved in the subsequent round of attacks on Monday night. That’s alarming but again it amounts to a couple of hundred people. The same was true in the French riots, which mainly consisted of small groups burning cars under cover of darkness. The availability of mobile phones makes organising this kind of thing a lot easier, and calls for a response. I hope that, in addition to those already charged, the police will pursue everyone involved in this shameful behavior. Many of them have been recorded on film and ought to be easy to identify.
Then there are the instigators of the violence. The senders of SMS messages will no doubt be hard to trace, but there’s no doubt about the role of talkback radio and 2GB in particular. It’s unclear whether Alan Jones or his talkback callers have committed a criminal offence, as suggested in comments here and elsewhere, but if he hasn’t, then the government’s spanking new sedition laws are clearly a dead letter.
The laws governing broadcasting are also relevant. Radio stations like 2GB get free allocations of valuable spectrum under a system of licensing which includes a prohibition on broadcasting matter that is likely to incite violence. If this system is to be maintained, 2GB should be stripped of its license by the Australian Broadcasting Authority for broadcasting people like Jones.
John Quiggin 
Marcian S makes some interesting points JQ, I don’t read it as him excusing the white rioters in Cronulla (although I could be wrong on that point). He is just pointing out that there are double standards in the way the media and some commentators report the situation.
With this I can not argue. As some who came here as a migrant (although at the young age of 2) I know that amongst many groups there is a racism against white Australians. Some of it is because of the racism that is recieved, but much of it is based in the same xenophobia that fuels Aussie racism.
Now the migrants that I am most familiar with (Polish and eastern european) the racism pretty much stops at a barely concealed sense of superiority and I have never seen it extend to violence or even rudeness towards “locals”. But it is undenbiably there, in general though, one or two generations down the track it tends to dissipate, depending a lot on the earnestness of the racism of the parents.
So this gives me some hope. Most first generation Polish people I know tend to integrate (whatever that means) pretty well and although they like to hold onto their traditions, and to maintain a group of Polish friends (and who can blame them?), they do also adopt Australian traditions and have aussie friends too. The second generation even more so. Maybe being white, and not having a distinctly different religious background, smoothes the road and makes for less racism from the local Australians?
If that is the case then it indeed makes a good argument for all of us to try a bit harder to make our lebanese neighbours feel welcome, whilst still being intollerant of violence and racism comming from their side. To pretend it (lebanese racism) doesn’t exist or is all our fault is doing a disservice to both them and to ourselves.
Surely we can stop making excuses for the violence and racism of both sides and treat everyone fairly and equally before the law.
“What boring silly nonsense Katz. Why should I, or anyone else, have to “confrontâ€? something that occured before my birth? Every ethnicity and major religious group on the planet has racked up a plethora of crimes. Such is the nature of humanity. Are we all to wear sack cloths, daub ourselves in ashes and self-flagellate?”
Steve, tak to the Aboriginal people who worked for decades only to find that their wages had been stolen by the state governments, talk to the people who remember seeing their fathers dragged off in chains (literally) for striking for equal pay (that happened in hte 1970’s BW so it’s hardly ancient history.)
Then try to tell yourself that it had no effect on those people or their descendants.
Pingu
Who is it exactly that is ‘making excuses’? Can you give a concrete example? As for ‘pretending lebanese racism doesn’t exist’, what about a concrete example of someone explicity denying that lebanese racism exists? Otherwise the ‘pretence’ is just what Pingu personally reads between the lines, and that doesn’t carry a lot of weight.
From all the reading I have now done about these riots I have reached the conclusion that the word “multiculturalism” is a lame duck. It’s meaning is so changeable depending on who is using it.
We need new words. Otherwise our dialogue will be riddled with misunderstandings that are merely about syntax.
I think the word “assimilation” is still somewhat meaningful, although obviously controversial. And “tolerance” seems to be used with some consistency. I think the meaning of “law and order” is generally understood.
“what about a concrete example of someone explicity denying that lebanese racism exists?”
No need to jump down my throat. I am just saying that while white racism is frequently mentioned in the press, much less attention is given to the racism comming from the other side. There is no need to read anything more into it.
“Who is it exactly that is ‘making excuses’? Can you give a concrete example?”
I don’t particularly feel like trawling for links to articles where all manner of explanations are put forward for why the lebanese are rioting and why the white locals have felt the need to retaliate (or visa-versa).
Of course no-one is going to outright make excuses except for the most rabid commentators like callers to Alan Jones.
“Otherwise the ‘pretence’ is just what Pingu personally reads between the lines, and that doesn’t carry a lot of weight.”
So therefore I can’t have an opinion on what I have observed and read?
You seem very defensive about something which to me seemed like a pretty mild opinion on the situation.
“I think the word “assimilationâ€? is still somewhat meaningful”
Really? I always thought it was just as nebulous as multiculturalism. What exactly does it mean to assimilate?
How many BBQs does one need to attend? Can you have an accent? Are you allowed to eat food from your country of origin?
The simple fact is that if something is done about the Lebanese gangs then the rioters will have no reason to exist and will disperse. You will solve both problems with 1 action.
Why do the Lebanese gangs exist?
QUOTE: How many BBQs does one need to attend? Can you have an accent? Are you allowed to eat food from your country of origin?
RESPONSE: I agree that it is not quantifiable. However I think (hazardously) that we would all accept that a policy of “assimilation” aims to create a common culture. It aims to unify beliefs, behaviour, values etc. In some ways it is much like nationalism. Whether this is desirable is open to debate.
I would regard the gangs as nothing more than a few bad apples of one particular culture, they exist in all cultures. Unfortunately they have been allowed to get away with more than is permissable and people’s tolerance has run out with them.
To blame their actions on low employment or whatever is only making excuses, people from other cultures suffer low employment too but are not causing the problems that we are seeing from these Lebanese gangs.
“I agree that it is not quantifiable. However I think (hazardously) that we would all accept that a policy of “assimilationâ€? aims to create a common culture. It aims to unify beliefs, behaviour, values etc. In some ways it is much like nationalism. Whether this is desirable is open to debate.”
So would it be fair to summarise this as saying that “assimilation” realy means creating a mono-culture?
or could we say that there are certain aspects of our culture that we want to have as common points while still allowing people to retain some aspects of the culture of their country of origin?
Now the migrants that I am most familiar with (Polish and eastern european) the racism pretty much stops at a barely concealed sense of superiority and I have never seen it extend to violence or even rudeness …
But every group has that barely concealed sense of superiority. the anglos in their Malvern / north shore enclaves have it. The anglo “skips” in the West have it. The irish, Chinese and Welsh have it. God knows, the bloody Scots have it in spades. This is common to every group everywhere in the world. and if you’re a marginalised group, it’s a necessity to be able to hold your head up with pride and think that there is something special about you an your extended family. People who would deny this to “ethnic” groups, especially the Scots / English elite who are the worst offenders, are simply going too far in their pursuit of a homogenised, one-size-fits-all society. Funnily enough, they’re the ones who often complain that us lefties want a boringly homogenised society.
I would say a policy of “assimilation” means moving in the direction of a monoculture. It may not necessitate actually getting to that destination. Just as a policy of “law and order” need not mean achieving a nation that is without crime.
I suppose both “multi-culturalism” and “assimilation” are aspirational statements. Both are looking towards an end point and aim to fascilitate arrival. In that sence both are somewhat naive.
In my humble opinion human nature is such that cultures will always be mixing and combining towards commonality. However at the same time they will be pushing themselves apart to create differences.
The underlying forces are:-
> the yearning we all have for certainty, versus the conflicting yearning we all have for variety or spontainty.
> the yearning we all have for feeling connected to others, versus the conflicting yearning we all have for feeling special.
These forces drive us together and pull us apart. On a daily basis and down through the ages.
If nothing else the riots help to confirm that we are not yet dead.
Paul
To blame their actions on lebanese gangs or whatever is only making excuses, people from other cultures suffer violence but are not causing the problems that we are seeing from these aussie nazi wannabes.
Alpha, correct me if I am wrong but these aussie nazi wannabes were not rioting before the lifesavers were attacked, or when that woman was gang raped. The riot has started because people’s tolerance with the Lebanese gangs has run out. I stand by my comment made on December 15th, 2005 at 8:58 am
“The simple fact is that if something is done about the Lebanese gangs then the rioters will have no reason to exist and will disperse. You will solve both problems with 1 action.”
Do you disagree with that?
“But every group has that barely concealed sense of superiority. the anglos in their Malvern / north shore enclaves have it. The anglo “skipsâ€? in the West have it. The irish, Chinese and Welsh have it. God knows, the bloody Scots have it in spades.”
I suppose that is true in a way, but I would still argue that for a first generation migrant it is different to a second generation Australian or a “local”. The sort of comments I have heard from older Polish people I have never heard in anglo company, even when people have not known my background.
I guess it is all a matter of degrees. But I certainly wouldn’t deny that it is common amoungst any ethnic group, anglo included.
“and if you’re a marginalised group, it’s a necessity to be able to hold your head up with pride and think that there is something special about you and your extended family”
That is pretty much what I put it down to. As well as a feeling of being less connected with the culture you are living in and a yearning for what you know (back where you came from). Which again, in the younger generation is much less pronounced as they grow up with Aussie friends and feel more connected even if they still retain a sense of their “Polish-ness”
“People who would deny this to “ethnicâ€? groups, especially the Scots / English elite who are the worst offenders, are simply going too far in their pursuit of a homogenised, one-size-fits-all society. Funnily enough, they’re the ones who often complain that us lefties want a boringly homogenised society.”
Couldn’t agree with you more.
“The simple fact is that if something is done about the Lebanese gangs then the rioters will have no reason to exist and will disperse. You will solve both problems with 1 action.�
I don’t know that you will be solving the problem though. The underlying racism and xenophobia will still exist. It will just need something else to stir it up again.
Just because you have stopped poking the hornets’ nest with a stick doesn’t mean that they aren’t there any more.
gangrapes? I thought that was just “boys will be boys”, but I guess that’s only when white football players do it. I know that they sure as hell didn’t call it a “SEX SCANDAL!!!!” when the perpetrators were ethnic gangsters.
“The riot has started because people’s tolerance with the Lebanese gangs has run out.”
This isn’t a good reason to go on a violent rampage targeting any and every dark-skinned man or woman, and it’s not going to do much to solve the problem of Lebanese gangs either.
No one said it was good reason but the fact still remains that the riot was in response to the bashings of the life guards by the Lebanese gangs. If you want to fix a problem you need to address the cause of the problem, not the effects.
I think there’s been a serious degree of over-analysis on this issue. It seems pretty simple to me.
Poor, marginalised and alienated lebanese (both muslim AND christian for those that forget) youths have turned into gangs that hate mainstream society. The reasons for this can be explained and understood and worked on, but the individuals are still criminals that require policing. They’ve deliberately picked a fight with racist drunken anglo youths who aren’t criminally organised but are fuelled by a mob mentality and the worst aspects of Australian colture.
The result is predictable. The solution in the short term is policing, in the long term it’s a matter of jobs and education for the lebs so they feel part of society, and there’s little or no hope for the yobbo f*ckwits.
“If you want to fix a problem you need to address the cause of the problem, not the effects.”
I accuse alcohol as being one of, if not the primary cause of the problem of mob violence. Tell me, how many stoners would be doing this sort of violent shit? Yet Howard recently said that pot was way worse than alcohol. For the violent and dangerous behaviour it causes, as well as its effects on health, Alcohol – a man made drug – is far worse than cannabis in any respect you can mention, yet cannabis – a natural plant – is the one that criminalised! My solution to the problem is to legalize marijuana and ban alcohol, get all of these drunken yobbos smoking the peace pipe and chilling out.
UQ student, I think you might find that there was a fair bit of cannabis and booze going down at Cronulla last Sunday.
The guys that smashed Maroubra up the following night were probably not unfamiliar with amphetamines.
The substance isn’t the central issue. It’s more the use context.
Paul
“Do you disagree with that?” ABSOLUTELY!
Unfortunate that the gang rape sterotype has to keep coming up. At the time of those horrific rapes in sydney, there was a string of gang rapes perpertrated by white aussie males at rodeos across western qld. The underage girls spent time in hospital as a result and the perpertrators that were caught were white aussie beer drinking slobs.
The fact is that the community expects more of immigrants, and has less tolerance of the few bad apples (foreign trash) in a migrant community, then their own white trash. The media has fueled these flames by putting migrant communities under the microscope.
Anyone that wants to argue that Domestic Violence / Rape in Australia is only perpertrated by muslims men needs to have their head seriously examined. Anyone here who can honestly say that the only violent gang mentality they’ve seen has been Muslims needs to take a closer look at their surrounds. I’ve personally been assaulted in sydney, and also mugged. Both instances were white aussie males, under the influence of alchohol. The fact is that australians idolize violence, as expressed so ferociously through football meat head mentality. I doubt the majority of people kinghitting referees are muslim either.
You turn a blind eye to our own races failings, whilst expecting the impossible from migrants. It is this intolerance that is racist – NOT multiculturalism.
Its like giving saddam an ultimatum to disarm, or face an invasion. Rightwing illogic applied through force.
Lebanese are more likely to be christian than muslim, can people please remember that?
We white descendants of shoplifters and cutpurses from the slums of Dublin and the East End – a scurvy, surly, scrofulus bunch of syphilitics – often hate our fellow whities more than we hate the other lot (the Levantines) because they (the Shire hoons) are such a piss-poor advertisement for our ethnicity and our history. That’s why so many of us hated P.Hanson: she looked a survivor of the potato famine, and sounded bonkers.
The riots prove definitively that we blondes are very very dumb.
(For what it’s worth, two of my ancestors were convicts).
Paul Arrighi Says:
December 15th, 2005 at 10:44 am
“The simple fact is that if something is done about the Lebanese gangs then the rioters will have no reason to exist and will disperse. You will solve both problems with 1 action.�
Do you disagree with that?
alphacoward Says:
December 15th, 2005 at 11:52 am
Paul
“Do you disagree with that?� ABSOLUTELY!
Now you are talking a lot of bollocks alpha, as my post clearly stated, 1 action will solve both the problems and you disagree with it. From your response you clearly you only want to deal with the rioters and leave the Lebanese gangs untouched. By the way race makes no difference as to how I would respond, if the roles were reversed, I would still be saying the same thing. As I said Dec 15th 9.17am, there are bad apples in ALL cultures.
Is expecting the gangs to be law abiding citizens expecting the impossible? Yes, I am intolerant, I am intolerant of the thugish mob behaviour but unlike you, I look to correct the problem coming from both sides.
People should read what John Howard said before they rush to criticise him. His comments are pretty much inline with JQ’s original post (although he doesn’t mention Alan Jones).
Norway isn’t racially homogenous. Thinking that is like forgetting the Ainu in Japan. There are also Lapps in Norway, remembered in place names like “Finnmark”.
PML,
There are also black people in Norway. But not enough to stop me regarding the place as racially homogenous relative to Australia, the USA, Britian etc.
When I visit relatives in Norway they are so proud of their non-racist worldview. The trouble is they almost never lived in a region which includes any group of people that are of a different race/culture.
Regards,
Terje.
The professor and his admirers wish me to show where I saw him apologising for French Muslims and their penchant for rioting.
It is a petty point, set completely away from the crux of my argument, but I shall deal with this in order to mollify.
I am sorry, friends, but you did not manage to trip me over. This is what I said:
“In the wake of the lengthy Muslim riots in my native country, international newsmedia and academics like Professor Quiggin…”
While ambiguious, I am sure that all but the most rigid and inflexible will concede that in this passage I was describing a certain kind of academic; one prone to outbursts of leftist fervor. These were the kinds of academics most eager to apologise and explain away the grotesque violence Muslims wantonly inflicted upon France.
For instance, Noam Chomsky might not have himself spoken on the subject, but most certainly he can be considered to be of/to be like the cadre of academics who would normally blame western imperialism, rather than the dusky social unfortunates killing old handicapped women.
If this cannot be applied to you, Professor Quiggan, I most sincerely apologise.
Otherwise, I should like to continue to duel in regard to the issues I raised: the unwillingness of the newsmedia and academics to concede the existence of anti-white racism, and their active attempts to portray white people only as the enactors of racism.
“I am sorry, friends, but you did not manage to trip me over. This is what I said:
“In the wake of the lengthy Muslim riots in my native country, international newsmedia and academics like Professor Quiggin…�
While ambiguious, I am sure that all but the most rigid and inflexible will concede that in this passage I was describing a certain kind of academic; one prone to outbursts of leftist fervor.”
Yer right, no one tripped you over, you did it yourself. That’s a pissweak piece of hairsplitting.
Returning to the main issue here, I lean toward wilful’s take on it a few comments above.
———————————
Quoting UQStudent:
“Gangrapes? I thought that was just “boys will be boysâ€?, but I guess that’s only when white football players do it. I know that they sure as hell didn’t call it a “SEX SCANDAL!!!!â€? when the perpetrators were ethnic gangsters.”
——————————–
More thought is needed here. You are comparing the racially-motivated pack rape of eleven teenagers by a band of Lebanese-Australian serial rapists to single incident rapes perpetrated by footballers, yes?
Firstly, the footballers, while detestable humans who should be executed for their crimes, did not choose their prey on the basis of race. The Lebanese gangsters have repeatedly stated that they explicitly chose young Australian women for rape.
Secondly, the footballers (as far as I know) each sexually assaulted a single woman. The Muslim gang is now serving 55 years for the rape (serial pack rape, to be precise) of eleven young teenage women.
While all rapes are abhorrent and should be punished with death, certainly the context of these crimes warrants that each should recieve a different contextual categorization. If merely for reasons of clarity.
But the public are not so clinically minded. Two rapes compared are equally terrible. But to add the stigma of multiple-victim, racially-motivated rape to one is to heap additional malignancy upon it.
I do not believe that anyone was so flippant as to regard the crimes of the white footballers as “boys will be boys”. If you can produce evidence indicating otherwise, then you will have proven that there are some astoundingly insensitive people in the newsmedia.
Nabakov, I am perhaps hairsplitting, but so are you, in interpreting my sentence in a way more convient to you.
I am, at least, not lazy, in that I do not merely point to someone else’s thoughts and grunt “what he said”.
Terje: “Why do the Lebanese gangs exist?”
why do gangs of any ethnicity exist?
As far as the issue of whether either or both factions were guilty of racism, as oposed to simple fuckwittery: so far as I know there were no Lebanese or Muslim religious flags on display; thereseems to have been no Lebanese equivalent of the “Patriotic youth League” and I’ve yet to hear reports of text messages inviting people to attend “bash a skip” day.
Think of it as economical, not lazy MS. Unlike you I’m not really into windy digressions.,
Digressing a bit now, I’d pay good money to watch you in a Cronulla pub explaining to the locals your reasons for executing footballers.
Just to pile on Marcian. S, yes that was a pathetic bit of hairsplitting. But as long as you’re comfortable wildly generalising about the Professor while you’re on his bit of e-realestate…
“no Lebanese equivalent of the “Patriotic youth Leagueâ€? and I’ve yet to hear reports of text messages inviting people to attend “bash a skipâ€? day.”
Well there certainly wasn’t a seperate group dedicated to “leb pride” the same as there was a “white pride” group. But you can’t deny that the general ethos was any different.
I think the text messages sent were explicit enough without using those exact words.
I don’t know how you can deny that the lebanese gangs were ratially motivated in their attacks. (If that is indeed what you are doing)
errm…
“ratialy” should be “racially”
An edit feature would be nice on this forum.
“I don’t know how you can deny that the lebanese gangs were ratially motivated in their attacks. (If that is indeed what you are doing)”
I think they were motivated by a desire to thump anybody who challenged their “right” to act like dickheads on the beach – whether the people in question were black, white or brown.
In regard to the argument as to the true meaning of “assimilation”, I believe that it is merely the act of society turning race blind.
A thousand years ago, it was unthinkable for a Scot to live immediately beside a Northumbrian. They would have eventually killed each other over historical grievance.
It is this awareness of historical grievance that motivates all racial aggression. Others have mentioned that this racial “specialness” is common to all people. I agree that English people like being English, and so on. But there is now no need for an English-Australian to drive down to an Irish bar and rough up the locals. The historical grievance is most certainly there, but it has been made redundant by the shared identity of English and Irish Australians.
The Lebanese/Muslim phenomenon is different, because Australia has not perpetrated any historical injustices against the Lebanese people. Yet there is that same perception of historical injustice. The same sense of victimhood that in a way allows Lebanese to justify cruelty to white Australians.
I believe that this is mainly fueled by two sources. Firstly, Islam. It is, at its core, deathly opposed to western liberalism and democracy. This is a very lengthy argyument and I do not wish to become mired in it. Suffice to say, while you can say to me that the Bible (old testament) and the Koran are comparable because they both encourage nastiness toward your fellow man, the former is the handbook of a much reformed theology. Islam had no reformation and cannot have one, as there is no mechanism for internal or external criticism. To do so seriously is to invite terminal censure.
The second is you, my leftist friends. Your hearts are too big! You weep so openly for all the cruelties of (white) man. You are so anxious to apologise for the crimes (real and imagined) of your imperial forebears that you forget the Darwinian nature of politics and power. Europe won the original clash of civilizations. This does not mean that the others did not enter the contest. Your impulsive need to laboriously find fault with yourselves and almost none with the Arab nations (who since the time of Mohammed have been anything but peaceful) that you have convinced the young children of well-integrated Lebanese parents that they have a great deal to be upset about. You do not discourage the tribalism that their parents sought to escape in coming here, and instead of encourage them to incorporate the best western culture has to offer them into their lives and cultures (as the natural process had always been before) you sternly advise them to reject it, lest they lost a precious drop of their cultural uniqueness.
This is not a formula for harmony. Look to Britain (as a former Frenchman I hate to say this) while the white people there now may be impossible to differentiate, just 1,500 years ago, according to the Venerable Bede, there were dozens of kingdoms, countless tribes and numberless tongues that ruled the island. They warred with one another on sight.
Yet today, such a thing is unthinkable. To say that there is any real, substantial difference between a man from Wessex and a man from Northumbria is to draw confused looks. Now there is only the slight accent variation to mark the bloodsoaked boundaries of empires. That is assimilation. They have not lost anything of themselves, they have merely grown together. They have weathered the same storms over many hundreds of years. It has ever been thus, from before the time when Tacitus pondered over the tribes who would someday coalesce to become the Franks (proto-French).
The same can be done here, but we must endeavor to make ourselves oblivious to race. Your reverse racism is, forgive me, stupid. You hop from one foot to another. It highlights the superficial differences and breeds resentment and division.
You leftists are swimming against the tide. Mankind’s natural impulse is to become more alike, not to keep a permanent, artificial divide between cultures that are, in the scale of history, not old and reverred, but quite new. Migrants should be encouraged to take the best from us, and we should be open to accepting the best from them. It isn’t a matter of grafting them on to a bland European cultural hegemony. It is a synthesis, the results of which will not be seen in our lifetimes.
What will grow in Australia, unchecked, without all of your well meaning self-loathing and multicultural policies, will be a beautiful new hybrid organism. Like any new creation, it is best not tampered with too extensively.
Surely that is more desirable for all of us.
Of course, I could be wrong. Nabakov will inform you as to how, or, if he’s feeling lazy again, indicate in general direction of someone who can.
“Digressing a bit now, I’d pay good money to watch you in a Cronulla pub explaining to the locals your reasons for executing footballers.”
I am sorry I cannot accomodate you by being beaten to an appropriate degree.
To be more exacting, I would suggest that rapists who just happen to be footballers should be executed.
“I think they were motivated by a desire to thump anybody who challenged their “rightâ€? to act like dickheads on the beach – whether the people in question were black, white or brown.”
Then why the attacks random white people living in the shire? Why were people bashed in front of their children while taking out their garbage in the evening?
These weren’t people who had been involved in an rally, these weren’t the “bra boys” these weren’t people at the beach, these were white people in their own neighbourhood going about their own business.
To me that seems pretty racially motivated.
Question: if this had happened in one of the primarily Vietnamese suburbs do you think they’d have been any less willing to attack random passersby?
Pingu
I hope you don’t mind the abbreviated form of your name. Most of your comments were indeed mild. On the other hand you were endorsing comments of Marcian S. that came close to trolling.
So far I haven’t heard any reputable journalist or academic ‘making excuses’ or ‘denying that Lebanese racism exists’. Certainly no one on this blog has done so. I can’t see the point of ceaselessly attacking this strawman.
On the other hand, it’s legitimate to look for reasons why this or that group of people is prone to violent or criminal behaviour. That’s pretty much what social scientists and criminologists do, and they should be allowed to get on with it without someone jumping up and down every time, accusing them of ‘excusing’ the behaviour in question. Otherwise there’s nothing to say except ‘oh, how wicked!’.
I say let’s deport this Macian S fellow. His values are clearly not consonant with the ‘fair go’ values of Australia …
Marcian, your attitude in lumping me in with Chomsky is unfortunately typical of your approach to the entire issue. If you had bothered to use the search facility on the blog you’d find plenty of criticism of Chomsky and nothing supportive.
SImilarly, if you’d bothered to examine your own attitudes you would have realised that crimes committed by some Australians of Lebanese descent in no way excuse random attacks on Australians of Lebanese descent in general.
Pingu, I suggest you reread the thread. There is no one here defending rioters of Lebanese descent. There are several people defending (or minimising the crimes of) rioters of Anglo descent, those who helped to instigate the Anglo side of the riots, sympathisers with the Anglo rioters, and so on. Why not attack them, starting with MS, instead of chasing shadows?
“So far I haven’t heard any reputable journalist or academic ‘making excuses’ or ‘denying that Lebanese racism exists’. Certainly no one on this blog has done so. I can’t see the point of ceaselessly attacking this strawman.”
Point taken. Perhaps excuse was too strong a word. But I think you would agree that most commentators mention the racism of the cronulla thugs, but don’t explicitly mention the racism of the lebanese thugs. Perhaps this is now changing, and I haven’t collected any stats on that, but it is the general feeling I get.
“On the other hand you were endorsing comments of Marcian S. that came close to trolling.”
On re-reading his post, it is indeed rather inflamatory in parts.
Oh well, live and learn.
*squak*
“There is no one here defending rioters of Lebanese descent.”
I don’t think I actually suggested anyone on here was. If I did, I appologise. I just thought I was contributing to the overal flow of the conversation.
“There are several people defending (or minimising the crimes of) rioters of Anglo descent, those who helped to instigate the Anglo side of the riots, sympathisers with the Anglo rioters, and so on.”
And I don’t agree with their sentiments. If it looked like I did then I guess I need to make an effort to be clearer in future.
“Why not attack them, starting with MS, instead of chasing shadows?”
Well, ok. Now you lost me. While I don’t agree with much of what MS is saying, I don’t want to dismiss him (or anyone else trying to participate) offhand. At the same time, I am not sure what shadows it is that I am chasing.
*squak*
Is that Finnish for *squawk*, or Polish?