It’s time for another weekend reflections, which makes space for longer than usual comments on any topic. Side discussions to sandpits, please.
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John Quiggin 
Yes, Pell’s cosmology fails the most basic test of internal coherence.
At least the Hindu assertion of tortoises “all the way down” is internally coherent.
See what happens to belief when it tries to confirm to reason?
Do infinite tortoises have infinite souls?
it must have been one hell of an organisational coup when father arizmendiarrieta found enough time between burning people at the stake & being on a fascist hit list to found the mondragón cooperative.
a.v.
If sole have souls, can the commit sins? Do they sin? And what, for them, constitutes a sin? Do they have their own ten commandments? And if they do have original sin, did god come down in the form of a sole and get himself executed for the remission of sins? If he did, clearly death by crucifixion was out of the question. Did that sole ‘rise’ again on the third day? And if there was a sole son of god what does that mean for the trinity?
Clearly, all a make work project for theologians.
There actually is no Hindu turtle or tortoise cosmology. It is an urban myth beloved of Westerners looking for exotic Eastern stories to prove how superior the mythology is once you escape from Europe.
Maybe there’s a sole Pope? But I thought Catholics had the sole Pope?
@Freelander
A dead sole would certainly move towards ascension by the third day, whiffiness rises – does it not?
The Sole Messiah could perform the miracle of the loaves and humans.
An extract from the Sole Messiah’s Sermon on the Mount: “Blessed are the ophthalmically asymmetric, for they shall see the same side of the argument — twice.”
thank you, Alan. i’m still listening.
a.v.
@Katz
Very good! Maybe we can be human members of their religion? Further work on the theology and there could be a generous tax break in it …We could set up a charity for the care of battered sole.
Thank you AV. Amusingly enough the various ichthyopneumatic questions raised in this thread all get carefully considered affirmative answers in the Hindu/Buddhist and Jain traditions. Except of course for the non-existent world-turtles…
Shorter Alan: made-up cosmology is more coherent than orthodox cosmology.
So long as the communion service features large dollops of lemon butter.
And think of sole confession: “Stop it, my son. Otherwise you will go binocular.”
Alan
not to mention the greco-roman tradition, which has a guy named atlas, standing on nothing in particular, patiently holding the world up on his shoulders. i’m stumped, though, how to classify the “non-existent world-turtle” in relation to the “invisible pink unicorn”; are they birds of a feather or sui generis?
a.v.
I wish to point out that the original conceit featured a tortoise and not a turtle.
Turtles insinuated themselves into the figure because Americans don’t know the difference between a turtle and a tortoise.
World turtles are parasites on world tortoises.
@alfred venison
AV – I thought Atlas stood on the Earth in order to support the heavens, as the poor Titan’s punishment for backing the wrong side in the war of the Titans and the Gods. At any rate, that version sounds perfectly sensible to me. I don’t know whether Atlas was a patient penitent, but it’s probably a better gig as divine punishment than poor old Prometheus copped. Tantalus, come to that, copped a pretty stiff sentence, and he was the boss’s son…
Shorter Katz: Citing as Hindu myth something that no Hindu actually believes is intellectually defensible.
How do you know that no Hindu believes in the World Tortoise?
Hinduism is an incredibly heterodox religion.
That being the case, the only sensible statement you can make on this topic is that you are not aware of any Hindu who may believe in the World Tortoise.
Easy, show me some actual evidence for a Hindu belief, not in world tortoise or world turtle, but in ‘the Hindu assertion of tortoises “all the way down”’. Let us hope your ‘knowledge’ of Hindu belief in the tortoise daisy-chain finds happier results than Freelander’s ‘knowledge’ that opposition to evolution was central to Catholic belief.
Are you suggesting, Alan, that Catholics have been happily accepting of evolution since Darwin’s big idea was published, and that Catholic hostility to the theory is a myth?
No Alan. That is a cop out. Why should I be expected to justify your assertions of factuality?
For the record, I’m happy to stipulate that the infinite tortoises figure is a western joke. But that does not mean that no Hindu has ever believed in its credibility.
Religious doctrines have been based on my flimsy evidence than jokes. Take Mormonism for example. Millions of folks believe that Joseph Smith perceived divine truths by peering at rocks lodged in the crown of his stovepipe hat.
Hal9000
you’re right, originally the burden was strictly the celestial sphere; only later does iconography & imagery stray to have him holding the world, as in ayn rand, or the sculpture on the building in collins street with australia facing forward. sisyphus got off lightly.
a.v.
Did anyone here Pell say, in his argument that Atheism equals Social Darwinism, that Hitler and Stalin are key figures of Social Darwinism? Now Hitler, with his hierarchy of the races and eugenics ideology, can be seen as prominent Social Darwinist, but Stalin? Stalin was a paranoid mass murdering dictator, but his ideology doesn’t really seem to be very Social Darwinistic to me. Thoughts?
An interesting Saturday round up that I’m reluctant to intrude on but perhaps with the mention of divine intervention in Pell’s case can I query the use of state funerals in Australia. This past week we have had the NSW funerals of Lionel Bowen and Jimmy Little. One got a state funeral, the other was farewelled by kin in Wallgett. I know nothing of the mechanism on how these tributes are determined nor do I want to buy into who was the more deserving. Are these things, like ‘national living treasures’ open to misuse? Are we just too polite in a religious way to query where taxpayers’s money should go in acknowledging the dead?
@pablo
Very good point. No reason taxpayer’s money should be wasted on these .. lf they are keen on getting someone else to pay why don’t they hold a whip’round? That way they would test how deserving of recognision.
More mutterings from the Peanut Gallery (off topic from current conversations):
With the ANZ bank raising its variable interest rates late last week out of sync with any reserve bank activity, it’s prompted me again to revisit an old idea (not original I’m assuming) of mine of complementing the variable interest rate mechanism as a lever to control inflationary activity with a variable GST lever. Ideally (in my opinion) the variable GST lever would be the primary lever to control general consumer spending activity with the interest rate lever as a backup or secondary lever for inflation control.
Relying solely on interest rates as a lever provides various disadvantages – impacts the most vulnerable of society’s mortgage payers disproportionately more than everyone else and also impacts business investment and planning in undesirable ways. What’s more, the linkage between banks and RBA is growing more and more tenuous as the lure of overseas credit becomes increasingly popular.
On the other hand, controlling a variable GST rate lever should theoretically impact consumer spending across the broad spectrum of society quite fairly and evenly with no direct 1st hand impact to business. The impact it has on economic activity is not quite as direct as interest rate fluctuation (eg, you’re only targeting consumer spending, not saving directly) but at least the extra revenue from a GST increase goes to government coffers and not extra interest payments made to some overseas financial institution(s) and central banks.
I appreciate the task of selling such to the electorate could be quite a challenge.
Thoughts?
@pablo
I’m totally against using public money to honour the dead and that includes people whose service to working humanity I’d want to honour. I’ve no problem honouring public service* with public money, but that doesn’t entail prior death. Funerals are for the bereaved — and so they should pay for them.
* IMO I don’t think “public service” should be defined by the government of the day. A jury of suitably qualified persons (say 12), chosen at random from a pool (say 5000), ought to be called upon on a quarterly basis to sit informally and determine what “public service” should qualify as honourable, how honourable it is, and how it should be acknowledged.
I particularly dislike the lavish state ceremonies given for Australian soldiers killed in combat. It’s embarrassing to the military and pretty insulting to the nations that have very regular combat deaths because they’re deploying in actual hostile areas.
D y ndrstnd tht th rsn y r fr s bcs ths sldrs fght nd dd fr fr tht frdm.Why d y tk tht frdm fr grntd y ngrtfl wrtch.f y trd t xprss yr lks nd dslks bt th mltry whl lvng n th cmmnst tp f Cb y wld b nld t th wll,ltrlly.
thnk yr cmmnt tht cmbt dths r rslt f dplymnt n ‘ctl hstl rs’ s pssbly th th mst stpd thng tht hs vr bn wrttn by hmn bng n th hstry f th wrld,whr d y wnt thm t b dplyd,Trrmlns?
You are seriously deluded, Joey.
Most soldiers do so because they were conscriptef , some volunteer because they have foolish notions of heroism. Few fight for freedom. Our freedom was only threatened in wwll. Those who fought that one were fighting for survival.
@Troy Prideaux
Like interest rate policies, your variable GST rate policy is a macro-economic idea. As such it ignores both, relative price changes (index problem) and the income distribution, cross-section as well as over the life-time of people. IMHO, a variable GST rate is possibly worse than variable interest rates in so far as low income people have discretion over borrowings but not over essential consumption items.
@Freelander
Hello Neville Chamberlain,not everyone is as sensitive and caring as you or with such enlightened views on religious minoritys.Did you learn nothing in the school playground?
I can’t be bothered following your silly trollery, but this appears to be a Godwin’s Law case, so consider yourself permanently banned – JQ
@Ernestine Gross
Another problem with variable GST is that it is totally impractical. Smart accountants would be very busy rewriting the dates of transactions to arbitrage the rate variations.
@Freelander
I suppose after Enron anything is possible – at least once. Otherwise the smart accountants know their ‘information system’ is based on invoice data and any rewriting of elements of invoice data is easily detectable.
Not that easily detectable, but anyway there is legally plenty of flexibility in timing transactions. Lawyers would also have a field day.
@JB Goode
And here we go with the blind, hand-on-heart patriotic fury.
Yes, yes. Unless there’s a state ceremony every time an army chef burns their hand, the communist terrorists have already won.
@Sancho
Goode had become God in his last apparition. So I can only conclude that he ascended into heaven.
I hear you Ernestine, and yes those on low incomes do have the option of not to buy a property, but do we really want to scare them away from buying a property? To a low income household with a mortgage, both interest payments and essential living expenses are pretty much unavoidable.
Relying only on interest rates as a mechanism is essentially taking income away from mortgage payers (and renters possibly) and giving it to those with nice savings accounts in times of fiscal belt tightening. Essentially taking from the poor and giving to the rich in such times of forced constraint. Just seems a bit unfair to me. I don’t have a mortgage and I’m not on a low income, but to me, that seems a touch unfair. I appreciate these times also assist self funded retirees with savings investments although there’s plenty of ways to invest.
Yeah, fair point.
Oh, no. ANZAC day is approaching, and we already have all the associated nonsense. Not that I don’t appreciate their sacrifice to give us an annual holiday.
Although I think the price paid was a bit steep. I just don’t think the traffic disrupting parade and associated tripe are still required. Why not rename it poppy day and let future generations think it is something about some girl named Poppy!
Least we remember!
I see the Libs most substantial man, honest Joe Hockey, is now promising to the end of the Australian safety net.
I don’t really believe it. They will probably still provide benefits to the genuinely sick and disabled, and those genuinely unable to work, especially given that it is now quite fashionable among the latte-sipping set to consider starvation a fate that ought to be obviated.
Now, if they were really serious, they would at least make those recipients spend at least part of their week in stocks, so the better-off could throw produce at them. That way, the enjoyment might partially off-set the pain of the onerous taxes we all have to pay to carry this thankless burden.
@Freelander
As Matt Cowgill points out, even totally cutting out new start and other benefits without cutting out health and aged care would not meet Hockey’s ambition to get Australia down to the level of South Korea. Given that the LNP is backing the NDIS, abot 50% of which is new money, this looks even more fanciful.
Means testing more rigorously won’t do any substantial part of the job because not nearly enough benefit is non-means tested. Moreover, the changing demographics of Australia mean that in structural terms, cutting benefits to the aged is the only way one could make a significant impact on welfare/GDP ratios. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that Abbott won’t be going to an election on anything that smells like that.
One could of course, opt for much larger immigration and a more relaxed attitude to humanitarian resettlement. That would move the demographics back the other way, but again, it’s hard to see the LNP being able to pull that one off.
If there is a shred of desire by the ALP to protect itself it will run hard on this one. Abbott really has no defence to the claim that if the Hockey plan is to have a show, benefits to the aged, the disabled and the sick must be slashed ans that they are all malice and clueless on economics. They really ought to run it now, before the budget comes out, so as to frame Abbott’s response in that light.
Hockey has no choice. He has to reduce the Australian safety net to improve the environment for capitalism.
He is just copying the trends in most other capitalist economies – austerity and welfare cuts.
In America, where the contradictions of capitalism have resulted in 15% of the population subsisting on Food Stamps, rich parliamentarians representing business now plan to cut Food Stamp and pension programs see:
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-04/D9U7DFI02.htm
Hockey is a well-fed Thatcherite – capitalism personified. They are all getting worried about their future and are looking to find more savings to protect their so-called ‘bottom lines’.
It is entirely normal for most of then worlds population to be reduced to food stamps, rags slums and early deaths. Hockey is just a typical instrument.
@Troy Prideaux
Mortgage is optional, however a person or a family have to have either mortgage or rent expense unless they are either living on the streets or in free public housing. To some extent, an own home relief the elderlys from rent expense (which is quite expensive and most of the time account for more than 50% of their income for the retired or the middle age unemployed). The environments in public housing is terrible, not only in the quality of living, but a lot of residents in that environment have drinking habits, drug abuses or violence that affects other residents. In moral grounds, no matter how intelligent or how much they have helped others in the society; I really feel sympathic to those that have worked hard for more than 20-30 years and ends up in public housing or homeless in their later life. While so many people in the society is driven into thinking increases in house prices is not too much of a problem because of return of investment but drops in house prices is a problem somehow; and worse, the same thoughts applies to governments thesedays and they somehow treat housing affordability and “improvements of house prices” differently.
@Tom
How can you have sympathy for them when they have wilfully chosen to not be rich, and thereby become a drain on the public purse?
Next you will be suggesting we can’t all be billionaires. It’s the politics of envy!
Yeah, I watched that interview. I couldn’t help but think it was a partially ad hoc appeal to the conservative right resulting from 1 or 5 too many lunches with the types of Boris Johnson et al over in London. However, as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow or even as sure as the Federal Treasurer of the day will huff & puff the day a bank raises their interest rates higher than a cash rate rise, come federal budget reply speech time, Hockey’s rhetoric will have taken a 180deg turn. He’ll get up there and pronounce the importance of our senior citizens and retirees and the importance of adequate support for that sector of the constituency. Of course, that’s not to suggest the policy agenda will support the rhetoric.
@Freelander
In that vein:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-things-rich-people-need-to-stop-saying_p2/
@Freelander
That’s a bit extreme; I don’t really think people would actually want to be poor. In some stages, I think most if not everyone once dreamed to become a “billionaire” (maybe when they are a child?); however, when they realise the factors involved to become one (whether if it’s the work load required, the education, the money they need beforehand etc.), a lot of them might rather live a middle class life. Middle class life is hard to define, whether that would be just a own home and without financial constraints on basic living expense or something more or less depends on what people considers middle class should be. However, I can hardly imagine people would actually want to be so poor to the extent they have to live on the street or in free public housing. More so as a lot of the middle aged unemployed really do want to work.
To some extent, the reason why they’ve become poor varies widely and sometimes it’s not something they can control. A lot of cases however, can be that they do not hold the skills or knowledge to become a middle class in a certain society, whether that would be working skills, personal financial management skills, or planning skills etc.
Yes, in some sense you are correct, they have chosen what they have become and it is true that they might be able to obtain those skills if they actually try. The unfortunate reality is that ignorance is a crime against own-self and to others (e.g. ignorance on climate change, economics, or politics etc). However, one of the main reason why leftists are leftists is because that we care about others misfortunes, even if they are of their own cause. It is the right that believes people’s misfortune their own fault, therefore we shouldn’t care about them.
Heard of irony? That everyone could be a billionaire is absurd.
@Freelander
Nobody said everybody could be a billionaire.
@Tom
I got the impression his reply was in general agreement with you Tom, but via cynical sarcasm of what’s actually happening out there.