47 thoughts on “Sandpit

  1. Couldn’t we do the entire thing on soil improvement? More carbon in the soil? A civilisation is only as good as its soil. Thats a real pain-free solution right there.

  2. Crazy Christian cuts off penis with chainsaw. ***friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/09/13/man-uses-chainsaw-to-cut-phallus-off-maori-carving-in-order-to-please-god/

  3. The one true age isn’t my point, it was Hugo’s. I agree he’s wrong on the existence of it.

    Don Dale is IMO another example of different treatment based on age – we don’t mistreat adults in prison the way we do those kids. And I’m not convinced that other “juvenile detention centres” are significantly better, unless you consider “keeping what we do secret” to be a core purpose. But what we do know is that those are the worst form of state care, and any state care is almost never better than even the worst family care… but that news has not percolated into the outrage media. The reason is a very ScuMo one… people are poor because they’re bad, they are necessarily also bad parents (as well as poor parents), therefore taking their kids away is a good thing. This stuff is not easy, but it’s made much less easy by a consistent denial of facts. There’s also a lot of “something must be done, this is something”… even when we know it’s wrong, it still seems better to do anything rather than leave kids in a bad situation. (I ignore the possibility of improving the situation as that’s so rarely even suggested that it’s pointless to consider it – and our current governments are actively making poverty etc worse).

  4. Moz, I never said or inferred there is “one true age”. I have no doubt some 16 year olds are more mature and knowledgeable than some 18 year olds and that the argument for a voting age of 18 and 3 months is essentially the same as the argument for a voting age of 18. But the law is a blunt instrument and presumably some age limit must be set, unless you envisage toddlers having voting rights. Eighteen seems sensible to me and aligns with various other laws that are presumably based on assumptions about independence and maturity, including the age of legal incapacity in most states.

  5. Hugo, you said and I quote “if you are old enough to vote, you are old enough to go to an adult prison if found guilty of the requisite crimes, drive a truck, fly a plane, get married, own a credit card, take out a mortgage and serve in the military- including being drafted if that happens to be lawful. As I do not think any of these things are appropriate until age 18”

    That’s the closest anyone has come to naming one specific age. My counter was a list of the different ages that Australia allows people to do those things.

    FWIW I agree that we should at least require the ability to read and write from voters. But since we don’t do that now I’m not sure it’s an appropriate limitation to suddenly introduce, especially if it only applies to young people. My argument on this is that whatever the requirements are they should be consistent with respect to age (race, gender, religion, whatever). If my gran can vote 1 ALP for “that nice Mr Whitlam” in the late stages of dementia with the aid of a helpful person because she can’t read or write… why should her great-granddaughter be denied the vote based on her age?

  6. This is RWNJ level of rubbish.

    Cadets are a form of “personal development” supported by the military but you don’t get sent to the Middle East to fight wars.

    Firefighters do not have age restrictions but you must hold P2 drivers licence to apply, which means you are at minimum 18 years old.

  7. Tom + 1

    In Victoria you need to have held a probationary or full drivers licence for 2 years before applying to join the Metropolitan Fire Brigade (MFB) or Country Fire Authority (CFA).

    Also Moz says:

    FWIW I agree that we should at least require the ability to read and write from voters. But since we don’t do that now I’m not sure it’s an appropriate limitation to suddenly introduce, especially if it only applies to young people.

    Yeah, OK, so your reasoning involves giving some weight to the status quo. I’m likewise start from the premise that those who want to disturb the current arrangements carry the burden of making a compelling case. I haven’t seen an even remotely compelling case made yet.

    In fact, given the brain doesn’t fully mature until about age 25 and the risk taking behaviour common in young males, evidenced by their share of automobile accidents and run-ins with the law, an equally (un)compelling case could be made for increasing the male voting age to 25.

  8. Hugo: “In Victoria you need to have held a probationary or full drivers licence for 2 years before applying to join the Metropolitan Fire Brigade (MFB) or Country Fire Authority (CFA).”

    Professional firefighters require a driver’s license, volunteer firefighters don’t. At a guess 95% of CFA stations across Victoria are staffed by volunteers only.

    If you are 16 you can join the CFA as an ordinary member. If you have completed your Bush Firefighter course (2 days), you can be sent out to fight fires. From what KT2 reports, it sounds like it’s the same in NSW.

  9. Nick, the under 18s need parental consent according to the CFA FAQ

    “16 and 17-year olds can volunteer as senior CFA volunteers, with some restrictions, if they have parental consent.”

    ***www.cfa.vic.gov.au/volunteer-careers/volunteer-faqs

  10. Apologies if I do not understand you comment Tom.

    Tom says:
    “This is RWNJ level of rubbish.”
    ??? rwnj re volunteer firefighters???

    Ton: “Cadets are a form of “personal development” supported by the military but you don’t get sent to the Middle East to fight wars.”
    How is this relevant to a a 16yo facing a wall of flames and ember attack and wind change on a steep slope. Are you confusing the army with the rfs?

    Tom: “Firefighters do not have age restrictions…”
    Don’t they?

    …”but you must hold P2 drivers licence to apply, which means you are at minimum 18 years old.”
    Never been in the passengers seat?

    My info was from local rfs chief verbally. I could not find on rfs website.

    Here is the https://yellow.place/en/maitland-vale-rural-fire-brigade-rosebrook-australia
    “Members can join from 16+ as firefighters.”…” The minimum age to join the Rural Fire Service as a volunteer is 16, if you are under the age of 16 please enquire about our Cadet programs. ”

    Where is the rwnj?

    I do know where the politics are Tom. RFS and also totally seperate Rural Fire and Rescue. They mix only in emergencies and still are harping on about comms equipment and who has priority. I am well acquainted with both managers locally and several senior firefighters. They want to be identified with politics and rwnj about as much as a 16yo.

  11. I’m likewise start from the premise that those who want to disturb the current arrangements carry the burden of making a compelling case. I haven’t seen an even remotely compelling case made yet.

    The case in favour of allowing people younger than 18 to vote in elections is exactly the same as the case in favour allowing people 18 and over to vote in elections: if people live in a country they come under its government and its laws, and if people come under the government and the laws of a country, then they should be able to vote in that country’s elections.

    I don’t know of any other good argument in favour of giving people a vote in a country’s elections, but no other is required, because that one is all that’s needed.

  12. @KT

    Indeed the CFA do have majority of the firefighters as volunteers and you can be senior volunteer from the age of 16. My response was based on NSW Fire and Rescue requirements where it is stated there is no age limit but requires P2 licence https://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=924. But lets leave it here, I’m not going to get bogged down arguing about differences between states and different services.

    My comment was directed at that being a cadet (which isn’t the same as being in the army) or a firefighting volunteer does not translate to “So you may die protecting us, and NOT vote”.

    My view on voting age is it should be 18, mostly due to so that children do not actively get targeted by political propaganda, lies or attack dog comments. While reactionary comments e.g. Greta do occur, there is a big difference between active political campaigning to reactionary commentary. My second but no less important reason is that, the debate of young vs old in support of left vs right has been going on for decades, but the trend is that whether you are baby boomers, gen x or gen y, the support for rightwing politics grow as you age. Most in the Left has been arguing (for a long long time) that we are the political party of the future, where support for us in future generations will only grow. If this is truly the case then why so desperate? Are you afraid in 2 years time when 16 year olds turn 18, they won’t vote for you?

  13. Tom. Thanks.

    We are talking last each other.
    This is a firefighter, permanent station based. ..
    “My response was based on NSW Fire and Rescue requirements where it is stated there is no age limit but requires P2 licence”.
    I get that but…
    Rural volunteers in nsw allow a 16yo to fight fires unpaid yet insured.

    Both are seperate from Rural Fire & Rescue in NSW. Power politics and history imo keeps this 3 corner setup in place.

    I agree “due to so that children do not actively get targeted by political propaganda, lies or attack dog comments” is a major problem. Constitutiinal change (unlikely), legislation, regulation and education may ameliorate most of above. Maybe like bullying, tatgeting of youth will be culturally offensive. One can only hope.

    Your para “Are you afraid in 2 years time when 16 year olds turn 18, they won’t vote for you?” belies your own politics, not mine nor propagandists nor a16yo.

    At what age did you decide right vs left frames such dialogue?

    Democracy first, right vs left need not in any way frame a voting age debate.

    Quote imagine by lennon here…

  14. My view on voting age is it should be 18, mostly due to so that children do not actively get targeted by political propaganda, lies or attack dog comments.

    I don’t want people of any age, to be deceived or abused, but people of all ages do get deceived and do get abused, regardless of whether they have the vote: denying people the vote doesn’t protect them from being deceived or abused.

    On Tom’s second point, I agree with KT2. The argument in favour of giving people the vote is independent of how they use it when they get it.

  15. @KT2

    Glad we agree on active political campaigns targeting under 18s could potentially be a problem, considering our federal election ads are getting worse election after election (e.g. election signs in foreign language with AEC colouring, how to vote card first preferencing LNP with AEC colouring, non-existent taxes, phone calls etc.). Legal changes may help in ameliorate or eliminate this problem but I don’t know if this can be done, because the under 18s would then be the only age group which has political campaigning restrictions, but are allowed to vote. Critics of the legislation can easily argue that without the ability to “inform” them, how can we know they are “knowledgeable” enough to vote.

    About point 2 left vs right, you are correct it shouldn’t be fundamental reason for or against lowering voting age. Though it is expected, given statistical proof that lowering the age group will mainly benefit left political groups.

    @JD

    If you can’t distinguish between reactionary commentary to actively targeted campaigning then I won’t waste my time with you.

  16. Tom. I dont agree with ” but I don’t know if this can be done, because the under 18s would then be the only age group which has political campaigning restrictions, but are allowed to vote. “. Imagine Tom, we extended as JD says “denying people the vote doesn’t protect them from being deceived or abused.” to all electioneering information.

    I dont understand this bit Tom “If you can’t distinguish between reactionary commentary to actively targeted campaigning ”
    … but ill take your advice “then I won’t waste my time with you. “.

  17. Political advertising which is so bad that people under 18 should not be exposed to it is so bad that nobody should be exposed to it. If it’s appropriate to protect people under 18 from it, then it’s appropriate to protect all people from it. But denying people the vote doesn’t protect them from exposure to political advertising.

  18. Tom, what would be an example of a political ad campaign designed to deceive a 16 year old, but that an 18 year old can see right through? What issues and types of messaging are specific to 16 year olds compared to 18 year olds?

  19. I love a great speach.
    Is this one ancient speech appropriate for this day and age?

    At length Hydaspes said to Sisimithres, “Ο sage! what are we to do? To defraud the gods of their victims is not pious; to sacrifice those who appear to be preserved and restored by their providence is impious. It needs that some expedient be found out.”

    Sisimithres, speaking, not in the Grecian, but in the Ethiopian tongue, so as to be heard by the greatest part of the assembly, replied: “Ο king! the wisest among men, as it appears, often have the understanding clouded through excess of joy, else, before this time, you would have discovered that the gods regard not with favour the sacrifice which you have been preparing for them. First they, from the very altar, declared the all-blessed Chariclea to be your daughter; next they brought her foster-father most wonderfully from the midst of Greece to this spot; they struck panic and terror into the horses and oxen which were being prepared for sacrifice, indicating, perhaps, by that event, that those whom custom considered as the more perfect and fitting victims were to be rejected. Now, as the consummation of all good, as the perfection of the piece,[30] they show this Grecian youth to be the betrothed husband of the maiden. Let us give credence to these proofs of the divine and wonder-working will; let us be fellow workers with this will; let us have recourse to holier offerings; let us abolish, for ever, these detested human sacrifices.”

    When Sisimithres had uttered this, in a loud voice, Hydaspes, speaking also in the Ethiopian tongue, and taking Theagenes and Chariclea by the hand, thus proceeded:—

    “Ye who are this day assembled! since these things have been thus brought to pass by the will of the deities, to oppose them would be impious. Wherefore, calling to witness those who have woven these events into the web of destiny, and you whose minds appear to be in concert with them, I sanction the joining together of this pair in wedlock and procreative union. If you approve, let a sacrifice confirm this resolution, and then proceed we with the sacred rites.”

    The assembly signified their approval by a shout, and clapped their hands, in token of the nuptials being ratified. Hydaspes approached the altar, and, in act to begin the ceremony, said, “Ο lordly Sun and queenly Moon! since by your wills Theagenes and Chariclea have been declared man and wife, they may now lawfully be your ministers.” So saying, he took off his own and Persina’s mitre, the symbol of the priesthood, and placed his own upon the head of the youth, that of his consort upon the maiden’s head.

    Upon this Charicles called to mind the oracle which had been given to them in the temple before their flight from Delphi, and acknowledged its fulfilment.

    In regions torrid shall arrive at last,
    There shall the gods reward their pious vows,
    And snowy chaplets bind their dusky brows.[31]

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