Who prefers the Greens, part 3

As predicted, the Liberals have given preferences to the Greens ahead of Labor, raising the prospect that the Greens might win some urban seats and perhaps hold the balance of power in a hung Parliament. As I’ve observed previously, the Greens have been subject to ferocious attacks, in the course of which they’ve been compared to Communists, Nazis, kooks and vandals. Presumably, a party that would give preferences to Communists or Nazis ought not to be supported by decent Australians.

So will any of those who have denounced the Greens in these terms follow through and advocate a vote against their Liberal allies? Will any of them even condemn the government? I’m not holding my breath.

33 thoughts on “Who prefers the Greens, part 3

  1. Imogen,
    I have just explained how the “conventional” food corn used currently by the Africans because of contamination with chemicals produced by fungi called fuminosins, is proven medically to cause cancer, hepatitis and birth defects, and also that the GM food aid, free of fuminosins, offers a scientifically documented way of avoiding those health and death hazards.
    What I cannot understand is how the actions you describe enable the Africans to avoid those medically serious and scientifically documented risks, and why it is morally acceptable, as you seem to be doing, to promote death, cancer and birth defects in a poor African population by denying them the safer GM food.
    Please explain why it is morally acceptable, to take the more hazardous path you seem to be advocating. Do you perhaps not follow or understand, or agree with the medical literature on fungal toxins (fuminosins) in corn food used in Africa and China?

    These corn toxin problems of course are also animal welfare issues, and where large amounts of corn is used as animal feeds, animal health and mortality is affect by this risk, and in the past (around 2000 season) this was a big problem in non GM corn exports from North America. Eventually, exports of corn and meat from Africa to places like the EU will be stopped if the don’t use GM corn, on animal welfare considerations, and general mistreatment of farm animals world wide by denying them safer GM feed corn will addressed, and I don’t deny the importance of animal welfare, but in my view, the human food safety issues in Africa and parts of China are more urgent.
    As I said, there is a large medical literature on this subject, easily accessible by PubMed search service on the web at NCBI. The subject is completely within my profesional expertise, by the way, and I teach Microbiology at a large University Microbiology department so I am up to date on this subject.

  2. D,

    I responded to your first post concerning food-aid where you ridiculously accused “Greens” of ‘crimes against humanity’, while (as seems to be characteristic in your posts), ignoring any other source of responsibility for averting the food crisis in African states.

    My point was quite simple –

    if people are starving, give them safe, clean food. If they don’t consider GM food to be safe and have unresolved issues regarding the use of GM crops in their countries, don’t use food aid to starving thousands as a club to smash through their right to self-determination. Put that debate aside for a less pressing time, and do the moral thing, provide them with non-GM food aid.

    Your arguments would carry so much more merit if you weren’t utterly, ridiculously and fatally blind to the politics of food aid except as a focus for your anti-green anger. If you weren’t so focussed on that, perhaps you’d take more issue on the USA using food aid as a convenient cover by which to introduce GM crops into already desparate nations. That’s not assistance, that’s blackmail at it’s lowest.

    I presume you’re aware also that you entirely changed topics from food-aid to food production over the course of your posts, which is why your diatribe above about the safety of corn in Afria makes no sense in response to my original post.

    If what you are trying to say is that Western countries keep supplying African nations with corn & other food aid that is sub-standard, there is another answer to that beside GM – give them the food we eat, not the trash we reject.

    On food production, what I find profoundly disappointing is you can quote the salient problem from the likes of Raven, but fail to put two and two together. Modern monocropping, large-scale, high input farming techniques is what has brought the world to a global food crisis, by destroying our soils, polluting and overusing our surface- and ground- water supplies, destroying biodiveristy, destroying seed banks which preserved our crop diversity. Such methods rely heavily on the so-called ‘scientific’ methods of farming which see designer fertilisers, seeds, fossil-fuel guzzling machinery, herbicides, pesticides, irrigation systems, yadda yadda yadda. They are destroying the productivity of the planet.

    On top of that, we have focussed our agricultural efforts on producing excess meat for consumption in the west and other non-essential products to drive an ever-increasing consumption-based economy. Agriculture is now export, market & profit-oriented – the exact opposite of what it needs to be. The amount of land and water and foosil fuels it wastes to produce fashion and other commodities is staggering, and appalling.

    What you fail to see is that GM is simply an extension of that system. It is based on corporate profit; it is based on mono-croppnig large-scale, high mechanical, high input farming aimed at the export market. It has nothing to do with preserving & ensuring renewable productivity or biodiversity, let alone enhancing them.

    GM companies break the law, repeatedly. They steal and patent biological controls that belong to everyone, such as Bt, and freely acknowledge that their wide application through their crops will render Bt ultimately useless as a pest fighter. They don’t care. They’ll just patent and monopolise the next splice that maintains the profit margin, and be thrilled that everyone is now dependent on their technology, if they have their way.

    If you truly want to see food security, you’ll spend a hell of a lot more time researching small-scale mixed farming, methods of promoting it, community-supported agriculture, organic and biodynamic methods, urban agriculture etc. etc. They are the only systems that have consistently maintained and improved productivity, biodiversity, topsoil, renewability. But they are of course derided, ignored, attacked, because you can’t make a huge profit as a massive corporation from small-scale mixed bio/organic farming. That removes your market of beholden farmers borrowing to buy your sterilised, hybridised seed to grow enough to pay the rent to your fat-cat landowner and buy a pitiful amount of food for the family. Hell, it might let people break out of the cycle of growing cash crops like cotton, tabacco, cut flowers, canola. And we can’t have that, no, not at all.

  3. PS

    food distribution is a huge part of the problem. The average fruit & vegetable you and I eat has travelled hundreds if not thousands of kilmotres, all too-often been snap-frozen and stored, rendering it’s vitamen content useless, and costing us hugely in energy consumption.

    I once stood on a dock with a wharfie in Sydney. He pointed to a shipping container being loaded onto a boat and asked me what I thought was in it. He told me ‘brown onions grown here, being exported to (I foget what country)’. Then we walked to the other side of the dock where shipping containers were being unloaded off a vessel and asked me what I thought was in them. He told me ‘brown onions, grown in [somewhere in Sth American] being imported here’.

    I’ve stood in northern indian markets and seen bananas grown in Ecuador, when two states below is India’s largest producer of – bananas. In rich countries we throw tanties if a huge diversity of fruit and vegetable and grains is not available to us, whatever the cost, and back in the producing countries, millions are malnourished.

    Simple illustrations of just how profoundly retarded our food trading and distribtution is, and it is very much part of the problem.

  4. Imogen,

    I would not quite as far as saying that the crime against humanity has yet fully occurred, but it is definitely in train: unless we see a remarkable change in this ongoing train of events that is now very apparent, we are in the middle of a crime that will take perhaps 5-10 years to unfold.

    However you do not acknoledge clearly that the serious concern about “crimes against humanity” being perpetrated by the anti-Gm lobby groups on these issues is not an accusation that originated with me: I am merely repeating concerns, that I fully agree with, and understand well, that have been made by Professor Raven (who quite likely was the author of your very own first year University Biology text or maybe your Ecology text, so he’s no JUNK biological scientist –check his detailed CV on the net ), and he made these considered and documented remarks deliberately in a formal forum on moral issues at the Vatican a few days ago; your characterisation of them as “rediculous” is a very poor defence.
    Such serious remarks have also been made with repect to Green groups who have tried to stop Golden rice being made available to the third world by Professor Ingo Potrykus of Switzerland, and I believe he too has a strong case.

    And finally ,I myself fully believe that the Green inspired campaign to completely ban DDT in South Africa falls in similar “crime of gross negligence against humanity” category to the banning of GM corn.

    And if you think I would make and repeat and support such an accusations as a smear, rather than as deeply held and carefully researched concern about the actual consequences of politically slipshod Green policies , you completely misunderstand the direction I am coming from. I held that it is a high moral principle to hold Green extremist, and their less extreme coalition partners, fully accountable for the consequences of their actions. Let me quote the best justification:

    Martin Niemoeller
    The Failure to Speak Up Against the Nazis

    This quotation is often cited incorrectly. The exact phrasing was supplied by Sibylle Sarah Niemoeller von Sell, Martin Niemoeller’s wife. The remark was made in reply to a student’s question, “How could it happen?”

    “First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”

    Now’s the time to speak out.

    Another of reasons I hold most Green groups accountable for the acts of Green extremists is very pragmatic and practical, and are well explianed by Frank Divine in today’s Australian , and in his recent Quadrant article , and are illustrated by the politics of your own state of Tasmania, where in actual Parliamentary Green coalitions, the less radical members of the Greens, were, as Devine describes, completely captured by the extremists. Are we to expect this to suddenly stops in the Federal Parliament?

    Now you make many other assumptions that I do not agree with, so it will take I very long time to settle the score if I tackled them all, but Ill deal with just one now.

    I completely disagree (as a very experienced applied geneticist) with the common Green doctine that GM is somehow inextricably connected with monoculture agriculture. This is completely misleading and factually inaccurate, and shows how little contact many “Greens” have with the actual practice of modern crop breeding. Their errors though are fully understandable if Green education about biology consist of uncritical readings reading environmentalist tracts. I can assure very few of these are sound professional science (eg Mae Wan Hos “genetic Engineering Dream of Nightmare? Gateway1998 that I am rereading today, or Greenpeace s website literature are clearly not).

    GM methods actually have an intrinsic capacity to used to increase crop diversity.

    Most relevantly, GM or rec-DNA can directly and simply exploited to deliberately increase diversity in the most important disease resistance traits. I won’t bore you with the details, as you’r educated enough to figure that out for yourelf, if you tried.

    As you know “Recombination” is the name for the natural processes that leads to greater genetic diversity. Rec-DNA is the other name for GM.

    I know that you might come back and point out, but yes, I concede those points, but the commercial practices the seed corporations will inevitably favour monoculture if they do GM. This is fallacious too.

    Let me refute it by pointing out the actual current situation with commercially bred GM soybeans in the US, which are not monocultures (at least about 70 varieties in use, I can cite precise numbers if you like) , and GM has in fact recently facilitated AN INCREASE in biodiversity for this crop.

    Thus although I fully agree with you that promotion of biodiversity in crops is a very worthy aim, I would prefer that we were discussing the many ideas I could share with you about how GM is assisting or could assist higher crop diversity.

    If these arguments are new to you (you don’t make it obvious that you’ve heard them before), thenn you haven’t been diligent enough in your research.

    Now I can sense that you are outraged that I should have serious moral criticisms to make about environmental zealots. Well consider this: they are mostly the same people who go around raging about the crimes of others – you know what I mean – Monsanto, Nesle and milk, unprincipled scientists in the companies’ pocket etc etc. So why isn’t it fully appropriate to expect some ethical accountability for political actions of such groups who so easily accuse others of evil crimes. It would by hypocritical to have double standard wouldn’t it?

  5. PS Imogen
    A few other small points

    You mention food AID politics as an issue that I apparently am not fully addressing – Answer Maybe so, but how much do I have to type; and since when have the actions of Green lobby groups -which I do address- not been politics!

    Food Distribution issues – Have I ever claimed better food distibution is not worthy of attention – food security is such a hugh multiply faceted problem and in my humble opinion all aspects of it should be tackled and encouraged with an open mind, something I question that you are doing. Somehow certain technology approach are ruled out.

    Imperfections in the evil capitist world

    Chapter 6 of Richard Overy’s The Dictators, that I’ve just read – is called Constructing Utopia. Read it, and the whole book, and then tell me you still confident the next Utopia you imagine won’t have even more imperfections than our current liberal-democracy. Your arguments have impefections too. The solution is to allow forthright honest debate, that we’ve just had, and eventually a better more realistic vision of the way forward will emerge, including many of your own worthy ideas I’d hope, but also mine, and even Qs.

  6. A full copy of Raven’s “Crimes Against Humanity” speech at the Vatican is at the URL below

    http://www.agbioworld.org/biotech_info/articles/religious.html

    so Imogen can explain better why it may or may not be ridiculous to talk about possible crimes against humanity by Greens. Prof Quiggin may well wish to offer a judgment after looking at the full transcript as to whether the Speaker Raven is scientifically sound, and call on any of his scientist friends to offer their judgements on his credentials to make such judgments. Since Professor Cory at The Hall Institute in Melbourne has a similar standing to Raven in connection to the Vatican, Q may even wish to seek her considered response to Raven’s speach, or perhaps he’d rather call on Peter Doherty, or maybe Adrienne Clark, or perhaps Jim Peacock to get their judgement calls and then post their replies and opinions on Green GM policies. I’ve taken the trouble to seek out their opinions on these matters already by the way.

    Then perhaps we could return to analysing Imogens implications that the whole issue is ridiculous, and to the immorality of the Green position on Gm food Trade.

    http://www.agbioworld.org/biotech_info/articles/religious.html

    BTW Imogen, I noticed this morning on Agbioview “As India looks to double its food grain production to 400 million tonnes by 2020, research is under way to develop transgenic crops by state-owned organisations as well as globally funded organisations like IRRI and the International Crop Research Institute for the Semi Arid Tropics (ICRISAT). ICRISAT has been responsible for releasing 150 varieties of quality crops in India, according to William D Dar, director general of the Andhra Pradesh centre.”

    So I guess many Indians , with little free land , feel differently to rich comfortable Tasmanians about whether this technology, trade and moral issue is ridiculous.

  7. D,

    I asked my uncle what he thought of the DDT debate. He is chief scientist, an aquatic ecologist, for an organistaion who’s job it is to fly all over the Indonesian and PNG archipeligo reducing malarial mosquitos. His response was that the ecological and human side effects of DDT, DDE & DDE were being increasingly found to be significant,as the results of their persistance in soil and water and in animal fatty tissues over 30+ years were being better understood. He related several an array of personal observations and study he’s done & strongly believes that the persistence of DDT is what was underestimated in terms of it’s impact, both on human health & ecology.

    I’m inclined to agree with him that the phasing out of DDT is essential, but when the ban was first pushed for, cheap, effective & benign water-borne mosquito larvae kilers had not been fully developed (what he uses know, to great effect). The only thing DDT had going for it is it’s cheapness. Again, if the West is truly concerned with a) reducing human death via malaria and b) not potentially destroying ecosystems to do it, it will do what my uncle’s employer does (a mining company) and cough for the more expensive treatments.

    You fail to note that DDT was the only chemical over which there was any dispute with the recent global agreement to phase out 11 other POPs with well documented catastrophic effects on humans & environment. A ban lobbied for by those dastardly greens – 11/12 ain’t bad.

    Btw, this will be my last response to you, as your own extremism and irrationalality doesn’t merit any more. I wonder if you’ve stopped to note the irony that the majority of the groups Niemoeller so famously noted in their tragic resistance to the Nazis were left – right where the green movement sits.

    And while we’re on this, just out of interest:

    -do you hold the American libertarian movement responsible for the 3 zealots who carried out the Oklahoma bombing?

    – do you hold the entire Australian military responsible for the individual who colluded with covering up torture in Abu Ghraib?

    – do you understand the difference between hierarchical and non-heriarchical power structures?

    – do you understand that what people might call themselves (eg conservative, liberal, green) in no way guarantees that their actions reflect the philosphies and principles we traditionally ascribe to those labels?

    Raven & the Vatican – ah yes, that bastion of moral righteousness, one of the most poisonous, backward, misogynistic, political forces the world has ever seen, the Vatican. That is the third biggest property owner in the world & one of the richest. Get back to me when they start handing over the land & billions they posses to the thousands of poor they claim to represent.

    Raven may well be an honest man of conviction, but that hardly makes him above mistakes. And given you’ve been deathly silent on my repeated point, that an easy way to stop Africans from starving over GM is to offer them non-GM food and solve the debate outside the context of a food crisis, I see no compelling reason for me to offer any further text on this. Your reliance on heirarchal authority to back your claims is duly noted though.

    And since you’re so fond of them, and trotting out references to people writing ploemics on food security and the need for GM, I presume you’ve taken note of the FAO’s position which is that GM is not necessary to reach its stated food security goals, and it continues to emphasise much more basic and essential reforms. Given the FAO cuatiously supports GM & represents the most’ centralist’ views of agriculture (being a global consensus structure), I’ll quote the Director -General Diouf:

    ” Regarding the fight against hunger, the 1996 World Food Summit committed FAO Members to reducing by half the number of hungry persons in the world by 2015. In speeches, interviews, and press conferences, I have always reflected the discussions of the WFSt: firstly, by indicating that the lack of political will and of mobilization of financial resources are the main obstacle to meeting this goal. Implementation of concrete projects in poor communities in rural and peri-urban areas are the priority for ensuring food production, employment and income, and thus achieving sustainable food security. These projects should emphasize:

    small water harvesting, irrigation and drainage works (wells, canals, impoundments, treadle pumps, etc.). The other FAO annual report, The State of Food Insecurity 2003, indicated that 80% of food crises are related in some way to water, especially to drought. Yet Africa, for example, only uses 1.6% of its available water resources for irrigation.

    the use of improved seeds and seedlings, particularly those issued from the Green Revolution and conventional plant breeding and tissue culture; the combination of organic and chemical fertilizer in soils that are no longer placed under fallow and are now depleted due to population pressure and clearly deficient in plant-available phosphorus; the integrated biological control of pests, insects and plant diseases without making excessive use of pesticides and complying with the PIC Agreement negotiated under the auspices of UNEP and FAO; and simple post-harvest technologies;

    diversification of village and household farming systems, with the introduction of short-cycle animal production (poultry, sheep, goats, pigs) and the provision of feed, vaccine and shelter; artisanal fisheries and small-scale aquaculture;
    the construction of rural roads, local markets and storage and packing facilities, meeting quality and sanitary standards;
    the negotiation of more equitable terms for international agricultural trade.

    I have always maintained that GMOs are not needed to achieve the World Food Summit objective: improved seeds and plant material generated by international agricultural research centres, particularly within the framework of the Green Revolution and by national research systems, including hybrids and varieties from inter-specific breeding are barely used by the smallholders of the Third World.

    In the meantime, I have always drawn attention to the need to feed a world population that will increase from a current six billion people to nine billion in 2050, requiring a 60% increase in food production, while expanding the arable land area is becoming increasingly unfeasible because urbanization, industrial expansion and transport infrastructure is encroaching upon rural land and deforestation and the cultivation of fragile ecosystems are causing soil degradation. Such a situation will require intensified cultivation, higher yields and greater productivity.

    With this in mind, we will have to use the scientific tools of molecular biology, in particular the identification of molecular markers, genetic mapping and gene transfer for more effective plant enhancement, going beyond the phenotype-based methods. Decisions on the rules and utilization of these techniques must however be taken at the international level by competent bodies such as the Codex Alimentarius.

    The developing countries should not only take part in the decision-making, but should also develop their scientific capacity and master the necessary expertise and techniques so that they can understand the implications and make independent choices in order to reach an international consensus on issues that concern all of humanity. FAO provides support to the countries of the Third World to this end and will continue to do so.

    Finally, in contrast to the Green Revolution which was generated by international public research and provided national research systems with improved genetic material, at no expense, biotechnology research is essentially driven by the world’s top ten transnational corporations, which are spending annually US$3 billion.

    By comparison, the CGIAR system, the largest international public sector supplier of agricultural technologies for developing countries has a total annual budget of less than US$300 million. The private sector protects its results with patents in order to earn from its investment and it concentrates on products that have no relevance to food in developing countries.

    FAO, in accordance with its mandate, will continue to provide a framework for ensuring a dialogue on these issues at the international level. Such a dialogue should be based on sound scientific principles allowing the analysis of socio-economic implications as well as sanitary and environmental issues. ”

    So there it is in black and white, all the main issues that dastardly greens raise as concerns regarding GM being echoed by the FAO, namely:

    *they are not needed to cure world hunger and contain largely unassessed risks on a range of fronts

    *their development is being controlled by private companies for profit, not by public organisations who will make any benefits available for free’

    * international trade & research capacity remains inequitable and has significant impact on the ability of develpoing nations to choose wisely.

    I work with farmers every day, and have studied both traditional and alternative forms of agriculture in the field and ‘academically’. I grew up on a small farm surrounded by farmers. I have more than a passing knowledge of farming techniques & farming realities, enough to know that you don’t, really. I’d surmise that your narrow view of the world through the lense of a geneticist has an awful lot to do with that. You clearly know nothing of the realities of agriculture in the developing world, bar from what you read in pro-GM magazines, which carry articles submitted by peak bodies, not the grass-roots. Your lack of logic shows in assuming that the millions of disadvantaged Indian farmers have any choice about what crops they receive, and/or the information they are given to guide their ‘choice’.

    Let me quote Oxfam, whose highly successful projects to empower impoverished farmers and provide food security and clean water I’ve witnessed in India, Mexico and Indonesia:

    “There is a world food crisis. Currently 790 million people are undernourished and around one third of the world’s children go to bed hungry. But their lack of food security is primarily caused by low incomes and unequal access to land, water, credit, and markets. [1] There is no crisis of world food production on the horizon, despite environmental problems and a growing world population. Hunger will only be eliminated if governments and international organisations such as the World Trade Organisation implement substantial policy changes in favour of resource redistribution, poverty reduction, and food security. Technological fixes alone, such as genetically modified (GM) crops, cannot solve this problem, despite the claims which have been made for them. [2]

    The impact of GM crops for people in poverty, particularly in developing countries, could be negative. GM crops and related technologies are likely to consolidate control over agriculture by large producers and agro-industrial companies, to the detriment of smaller farmers.

    Leaving aside risk factors, GM crops could be of some benefit to poor farmers in the longer term if applications are directed to their needs and if intellectual property rules do not channel all the gains to companies. These conditions do not apply at present and require government action.

    There may be gains to low-income consumers flowing from reduced crop prices, if there are not effective monopolies in the supply chain. On the health and environmental side, we believe there is not yet sufficient scientific evidence to allow the commercial production of GM crops and that the ‘precautionary principle’ should be adopted. [3] Regulation and monitoring in developing countries must be considerably enhanced if consumers and the environment are to be properly protected.

    World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules are relevant to GM crops since they limit countries’ rights 1) to restrict production and trade of GM products, or to introduce mandatory labelling of foods, and 2) to design their own intellectual property legislation.

    Negotiation and enforcement of other international agreements is needed, especially in order to safeguard farmers’ seed saving rights, public health, and environmental resources. These agreements include the Convention on Biodiversity and the Biosafety Protocol, which a number of key countries, including the USA, have not ratified.”

    Agriculture, ecology and the politics of development are rich fields to mine for many examples of narrow scientific views resulting in inadvertant disasters. Extremists on both sides of the GM debate may well see us witness another one. I’ve not once disagreed with you that some who call themselves ‘green’ are irresponsible criminals, but your food aid example is not one of them. What you represent is the other extreme, someone so invested in and pro-GM that you have demonstrated a complete inability to consider the negative implications that are being discussed with as much vigour and transparency as possible.

    I’ll finish with a link to an older but still telling Oxfam round-up (excusing the pun) of the state of global affairs re: GM

    http://www.oxfam.org.uk/what_we_do/issues/livelihoods/biotech_gm.htm

    (note: some of it is out-of date, particularly in relation to current international treaties and property rights)

    It covers – key developments in the technology, benefits, research directions vs food security research required, socioeconomi impact, property rights, biopiracy, conservation & sustainabile agriculture, environmental health impact.

  8. RE “And given you’ve been deathly silent on my repeated point, that an easy way to stop Africans from starving over GM is to offer them non-GM food and solve the debate outside the context of a food crisis, I see no compelling reason for me to offer any further text on this.”

    Imogen, as there are so many of your points that I disagree with that I’ve been silent about, I would suggest that you do not attach any significance to me not tackling the above point so far.

    Indeed, I dont agree that the substitution you so find so facile to demand of food donors is actually easy, safe or ethical. You must be aware that the US food AID offered to the Africans may well be GM free, or it may not be – the Americans do not segregate two types of corn, and mandating separation to enure a claim of GM free is true would require a substantial delay and an audit trail and so on, and this would be costly and too late to address to starvation problems. And if you demand that the US by it from elswhere, I’d offer the counter more moral suggestion : those who demand this should donate the funds themselves and put their money where their mouths are.

    I question strongly the morally of creating delays in food aid delivery during a famine.
    Your argument is to reject food aid during a famine and demand the donors substitute their donation with a more costly, not easily available, ont immediately available, more toxic alternative doesn’t seem very ethical to me.

    I’m disappointed also that you don’t acknowledge political actions of pushing toxic food of African by political pressures (by the EU and Green Groups) is immoral. However I am pleased that by your strenuous rhetorical efforts to distance different Green groups from one another your are indirectly showing by your emotional comments that you do in fact understand the basic horrible immorality of poisoning of Africans by Green-EU collusion, and are thus not in complete denial, so at least my point there has been made.

    Thanks for FAO Director Diof’s quotes: yes I’d noted them before (even posted them if I recall correctly – glad you’re reading them) but in citing them you didn’t seem to understand FAOs support for the importance, even essential role, of GM technology in the medium to longer term, and you seem only to have noted the relevance his remarks about the immediate situation. My argument in fact relate to longer term food sustainability over the next few decades, and are endorsed by the FAO.

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