Given the election campaign we have endured, the only just outcome is that both sides should lose. Amazingly, this is, more or less, what happened.[1]
fn1. A bit of esprit d’escalier on my part. But thanks to the slowness of counting, I can get my thrust in before it’s too late
John Quiggin 
@Michael of Summer Hill
Well done Moshie. Shamefully there is no difference in the policies towards asylum seekers of both the Coalition and Labor. They need to get themselves to New Zealand for some professional development sessions who could teach them both a lesson and has already earned the respect of the international community for its humane response to asylum seekers there.
The government (s) both prior and present are wasting obscene amounts of money on these immoral detention policies, money that could be much better spent elsewhere giving people decent health services for example.
Let the people in detention out to work and add some value here. There is no value to anyone in detaining them. If they can release prisoners and monitor them, they can do the same with asylum seekers.
An off-the-subject comment to Michael of Summer Hill – I was there!
Summer Hill I mean – amazing place. I flew down from Cape York Peninsula to visit a leathergoods factory – stunned by the littered wasteland of Martin Place. Felt a little more at home when I saw a demolished building, and raw sandstone exposed in the excavation.
I caught a train to Summer Hill, narrow streets and little old clay brick buildings leaning against each other – half expecting to see a hobbit emerge from a low doorway.
Spent a couple of hours in a long, low and dark factory crowded with cheerful migrant workers and amazing Heath-Robinson machinery. I’m glad that Australia still has such anachronisms.
I don’t miss BA Santamaia though.
@Michael of Summer Hill
Clearly this is not the case. If you were in fact involved within the Catholic church you would reailse that it remains strongly conservative in it’s views.
Reminiscence is a wonderful thing. An old friend who grew up droving in what is now Katter country was recalling the year his father was killed – he was thrown from his horse and broke his neck. “It was 1922, I think….yes, the last year we shot teddy bears.”
Tony Abbott for PM, I have no idea what you are on about for the Catholic Church has always been sympathic towards asylum seekers. If you read their Media Release dated May 28, 2010 a number of Catholic bishops question the Coalition’s proposed policy changes on refugees and asylum seekers saying that a return to the Pacific solution would show a lack of appreciation of the ethical issues related to migration and that the announced changes which require asylum seekers to be processed overseas if the coalition was to win government is a ‘backward step’ as the period of temporary protection visa would essentially limit familiy reunion wrights.
The last known physical specimen of a California grizzly was shot and killed in Fresno County in 1922.
Do you mean this teddy bear Joggles or are you talking about something else completely different? Please explain.
Ron E Joggles, how old is your mate if he was droving in 1922?
@Michael of Summer Hill
I smell a rat Moshie.
The hung parliament gives the rest of us a chance to open up the political discussion. Lets not forget that the independents are still politicians, but, they are likely to create some space for negotiation where well organised voices can intervene. This is what i argue in:
http://powerincoalition.com/2010/08/australian-hung-parliament-creates-opportunities-for-community-based-coalitions/
Amanda Tattersall, unless social movements have traction, bringing about social change from the grass roots level is very difficult but it can be done. All the best.
MOSH – whilst the ALP still put asylum seekers in detention their policy isn’t exactly the same as that of the Liberals. The Liberals, whilst also harsh, at least managed to use that harshness as a deterent. The ALP are harsh without much benefit at all. And because the ALP are less effective more people experience the harshness. However the ALP have got the issue off the nightly news as ALP leaning journalists leave the issue alone.
TerjeP, the asylum seekers issue is turning out to be a farce as Australia slowly moves away from its obligations under the UN convention. And considering the small number of asylum seekers coming to country and the fact regional Australia is crying out for workers then the policies of both major party’s do not make sense and need to be reassessed.
Sorry, Michael & Alice, that stuff was entirely irrelevant, and obtuse. Stimulated by thinking about the city/country divide that looms so large for us. The old drover died 20 years ago in his 80s – teddy bears are, of course, koalas, whose pelts fetched a good price.
Alice, re your comment on “Rural lawmakers hold key”, as a Labor man, it distresses me that Qld’s Labor govt is similarly despised. It amazes me how many people they have running around up here in new 4WDs, to no effect.
My Aboriginal countrymen are re-acquiring their homelands, but not in a way that benefits them. Instead of families regaining title to their traditional estates, communal title is granted over vast areas to collectives involving several families who often contest each others rights.
No one gets to own a block, build a house, or establish a business – economic activity continues to decline, except of course the massive mineral resource developments on the west coast of the Peninsula, but few locals participate in that.
Federally-funded “ranger” programs employ a handful of people spasmodically on ineffective environmental projects, while most Aboriginal people remain mired in disfunctional community housing, required to participate in welfare-to-work programs that provide the same old “gammon” training in horticulture & basic computing that they all did a decade ago, with compulsory & demeaning interviews fortnightly with Centrelink & Job Services Australia.
All in the knowledge that none of this is remotely likely to prepare anyone for a job, and that there will be no jobs, so long as State & Federal policies are resolutely opposed to subdivision of vast rural holdings, development of small enterprises & the growth of remote communities, under the misapprehension that this is the best way to manage the environment.
I could go into the problems with the Pearson-mandated authoritarian Welfare Reforms that both Labor and the Coalition have subscribed to, and the fundamentalist US education program that has the experienced teachers up in arms, but I think I’m beginning to sound hyserical.
Ron E Joggles, without knowing all the facts I can only take your word as to what is happening in Nth Qld. However, the last thing Australia needs is a repeat of forcefully removing indigenous people from their ‘country’ and sending them to Palm Island.
Ron E – I think this is the essence of the problem. Good on you for saying so.
“so long as State & Federal policies are resolutely opposed to subdivision of vast rural holdings, development of small enterprises & the growth of remote communities”
Its both Labor and Liberal Im afraid. Too many Labor voters are assuming that Labor today is stilll the more caring party or “the party for the people”. This vote, this hung parliament says one thing to me. People cannot tell the difference between the Labor Party and the Liberal Party.
I find it interesting that in many other policy areas both major parties pursue the politics of mindless de-regulation yet with Aboriginies and their land they want you to function as a “co-operative or collective”. Its odd isnt it?. It isnt gelling at all and it doesnt seem to be working. Maybe there is another agenda – to ensure that at some point the “co-operative” falls apart and the land can then be sold in one great swathe…to who? Large miners?
Oh I am black with both major parties now REJ.
This is not so different to what Bob Katter is complaining about. If he still had the jobs and businesses in his electorate maybe your people would have somewhere to work instead of those demeaning fortnightly Centrelink interrogations.
[audio src="http://www.3aw.com.au/displayPopUpPlayerAction.action?&url=http://media.mytalk.com.au/3AW/AUDIO/240810_Katter.mp3" /]
Thank goodness someone is complaining about it instead of raving on in zombie mode about the benefits of free trade and deregulation like Liberal and Labor . The farmers, many nationals (except Joyce and his rollover mates), the independents, the consumers and the greens are together on the matter of firms like Woolies and Coles. So where are Labor and Liberal? Heads in sand – stuck in campaign headquarters living for their immediate parties’ power and not the Australian people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnQMOyGeP_I
A curse on Woolies and Coles and a curse on both governments that allowed Coles and Woolies and other behemoths to rob us all blind and get away with it. As for those people holding Coles and Woolies shares in their super funds worrying about their $$ dividends….they are too stupid to realise they have paid for their own dividends probably ten times over this year… every time they shop they pay a premium for their dividends. Every time their children or grandchildren shop they pay for them too.
Good on Katter. Someone has to say something. But do Liberal or Labor listen? Will they change? No – they are the identical twin parties of economic destruction.
@Alice
a key recommendation of the ACCC groceries inquiry was that all levels of government reassess the zoning and planning laws having regard to the likely impact of a supermarket on existing competition between supermarkets in that area.
do you support that recommendation?
Jim Rose – the ACCC is part of the problem. They dont have enough teeth and what teeth they have they arent willing to bare. This was the weakest report (by King, Martin and Samuels). The ACCC is part of the problem by giving the green light in the past to a string of mergers in the past that enabled Woolworths, Coles and metcash to get to the point of total domination (probably did that under the market worshipping Howard government – it wouldnt surprise me).
http://www.smh.com.au/business/accc-does-too-little-too-late-20080805-3qf8.html
What did it achieve – unit shelf pricing? Woop de doo.
Policies and election campaigns from both Libs and Labs aimed at marginal electorates has set aside most Australians who will be now subjected to government of the bogans, for the bogans, by the bogans.
TerjeP, if the Coalition think the Greens are extreme and the Independents flaky, then Labor is in a good position to form a minority government and cannot see any of the Independents and/or Greens jump into bed with Abbott.
I dont know when Terje is going to realise that more people are coming to the conclusion that the Coalition itself is flaky with all this pro market liberal freedoms and deregulation they seem to put their faith in….what is worse is that Abbott cant even control his feral troops.
Alby Shultz, for example – who is he? What possible right does he think he has to phone Tony Windsor and abuse him? How many more like that are there in the Coalition? Well – there is Steve Fielding and Barnaby Joyce (and I bet Barnaby isnt as popular as Katter is).
There must be some people in the country starting to question the extreme right nutcases in the liberal party. However old habits die hard. It might take a while yet. Either country people move right and accept the indignities coming their way from the free market and stingy governments (re services) or the LNP abandons its free market worship and its hatred of public services and moves left, but until that happens there will be no joy lost between country people (ie traditional nationals) and city slicker liberals.
Oh and the Cockroach does what she does best…sits on the fence and try to hose it down
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/bishop-laughs-off-schultz-call-20100829-13xdj.html
I wonder if Tony Windsor thinks of Alby Shultz as one his mates now?? Personally Id write him off as an ignorant block headed fool.
To the independents – be warned and be afraid. Be very afraid.
As for Derick – he seems to be implying that people that live in marginal electorates are all boguns? I dont know where Derick lives but that electorate must vote one way every time. Id call that bogun.
Alice, Abbott is at it again lying through his teeth. This is what he said this morning ‘Look, I think that whether you’re a country Liberal, a National Party member or a rural independent, you’re basically articulating the discontent of rural Australia. The one third of Australians who don’t live in metropolitan areas I think quite understandably feel that they’ve been neglected by city-centric politicians and particularly by a city-centric Labor Party. Now, essentially, they’re speaking the same language and I think the Coalition is very well placed to respond to those concerns’. What a lot of bull.
@Michael of Summer Hill
As if Abbott really cares about the people that live in the country? Only enough to visit “the bush” and say “I really like the bush” – hes probably tarvelling in a great big four wheel drive with bullbars for the city traffic…
the great neglector wants to show sympathy now???
MOSH – you’re assuming that the only good government is one that passes legislation.
@Michael of Summer Hill
Dont worry Moshie – all these independents are a wake up to Abbott, except I might suggest, Oakeshott – he is too young not to be affected by the smear campaign of the nationals against him. Im not sure he has a tough enough hide.
@Michael of Summer Hill
Too right! Meanwhile the tail end of the coalition rump was berating at least two of the independents that Tony Abbott needs. I was waiting with giddy anticipation that a journalist would ask Tony exactly how a coalition can provide a more stable government than they claim Labor can, when they bully and berate the independents that they categorically need, if they are to form a government? What will happen at the first sign of differences of opinion on a policy matter – will Banana 1 (aka Barnaby Joyce) and Banana 2 (aka Warren Truss) go over and (metaphorically) belt seven shades of colour out of their independent colleagues? Threaten them by sending them a pair of red budgy smugglers in the post, the Liberal equivalent of the live rifle round in the letterbox? Who knows.
Finally, did anyone else see the following two articles in the Australian last week? I read this one in a coffee shop: “Mining investment to hit record” [Aus pg 4 (Fri 7th Aug 2010)] and I’ll quote three excerpts:
and,
and
[My boldface font in the quotes.]
So, as the boldface text in the above quote indicates, the big miners already knew that they had a big BIG year in the making, before the mining tax was announced. The whole quote implies that the big miners had no intention (or very little, anyway) to withdraw from capital expenditure decisions, whether a super profits tax was decided upon or not. At least that’s my jaundiced reading of it. Maybe its all poor choice of words combined with my lack of basic comprehension of the facts, hmm? No need to reply to that!
The other interesting story was “NBN wins regional backing”, by Guy Healy [Aus pg 21, (Wed 25-08-2010)], in which some attempt to explain the costs and benefits are made. While the broadband bandwidth argument continues, I couldn’t help noticing in David Jones’s electrical section just how bandwidth hungry entertainment appliances are becoming. Take a couple of wall mounted flatscreen TVs, one for the adults, one for the bedroom of the kid(s), add a couple of laptops such as a work one and an entertainment one, throw in a few mobile phones and one or two PS3s (PlayStation 3 gaming console), and a fully broadbanded computer for the kid(s)’s MMPGs (Massively Multi-Player Games) and what have you, and that’s some serious data movement in the evening. Did I mention 3D TV? Gave that a try too, and finally after all these years of promises, it has arrived in usable, immersive (sort of) form. Certainly, it is easy to drop into the suspension-of-disbelief mode that carries a person in a movie or game. The depth sensation is great, so I think a lot of the new games next year will incorporate the 3D-HD imaging – wow! 3D video conferencing, 3D technical graphics for data visualisation, remote robotic surgery (which does occur now, BTW, hard though it is to imagine) given 3D map of the “client”, and so forth.
I think that the coalition have missed the boat on the NBN; the miners seem to have lied with regards to their expectations of the impact of a super profits tax, and to have used a national campaign of “shock” ads to perpetuate false information, knowingly. Aren’t the listed mining companies in breach of their continuous disclosure requirements, if they fail to notify shareholders of information with potentially material effect, information that would have contradicted their ad campaigns? Seems fishy to me, smells a lot like AWB.
TerjeP, I don’t have to assume anything for Abbott is just a born liar.
Donald Oats, that foul smell is coming from the neo-conservative illywackers bulldust.
This seems a particularly good article ……
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/27/2995560.htm?site=thedrum
@Chris Warren
antony green’s political and constitutional history is sound and well-researched indeed.
his constitutional speculations are poor. He says:
“Q: Could any agreement with the independents fix the term of Parliament.
Yes. The current term could be fixed simply by passing legislation fixing the date of the next House election. The dates of future elections could also be fixed. However, none of these dates could be constitutionally entrenched without a referendum. Legislation fixing an election date could be passed, but it could equally be removed by the passage of repealing legislation.”
Incorrect. the constitution is specific about dissolutions of the house and general elections:
“Section 32 – Writs for general election
The Governor-General in Council may cause writs to be issued for general elections of members of the House of Representatives.
After the first general election, the writs shall be issued within ten days from the expiry of a House of Representatives or from the proclamation of a dissolution thereof.”
Green also ponders in response to Q: Would there be another Senate election?
“No. The Constitution does not explicitly state that another half-Senate election cannot be held, but it is implicit in the fixed term of the Senate that the Senators elected last weekend must take their seats in July next year. There cannot be another half-Senate election until after July 2013.”
Incorrect!
“Section 7
The Senators shall be chosen for a term of six years, and the names of the senators chosen for each State shall be certified by the Governor to the Governor-General. …
… Section 13 – Rotation of senators
… The election to fill vacant places shall be made (in the year at the expiration of which) within one year before the places are to become vacant”
the election! not elections, and the writs are issued by state governors as are the certifications of who is elected!!!!!!!!!!!
@Donald Oats
Not just the Miners either Don – but Woolworths and its eleven straight years of bumper profits. Profit up to 2 billion from 1.84 last year…and the Govt and the ATO think Paul Hogan and Strop Cornell are the only ones worth impounding??
@Ron E Joggles
Ron E – Pearson was the liberals idea of an aboriginal reprsentative. You should know that Pearson is no more than the Howard govts pet to introduce even harsher policies. Shame on Pearson.
The problem of course is the liberals they cant show their true colours. They are really too unpalatable for the ordinary person – hence they used Pearson to be their mouthpiece. Pearson, the new Benelong.
TerjeP, one only has to look at Abbott’s track record to see that he continuously changes his mind from one day to the next and is not fit to be the next PM.
Mosh – another Coalition loose cannon calls Oakeshott’s pregnant wife saying “tell him its the Devil”
The liberals have really lost it – some of their membership are obviously stark raving…. Imagine what it would be like for the independents if they do decide to go with the liberals. At the moment they are supposedly being courted by LNP. They are really having trouble keeping up appearances.
If this is the coursthip the marriage will be hell.
Alice, reports indicate the Nationals want to have a ‘say’ in any decision affecting their electorates and the matter is so serious that the marriage with the Liberals may end in divorce if the Independents are given any favoritism.
Alice, it seems the Crook will sit in the cross benches as the Truss might give way because of Abbott’s indecisiveness.
@Alice
Some of the membership of all parties are stark raving – strong tribal loyalty overwhelming all rationality. Sometimes the more outrageous and nonsensical behaviours and arguments are the stronger the declarations of loyalty. Having them on your side can be more hindrance than help but pulling them back to within more reasonable bounds no doubt poses a great dilemma for the more reasonable members who want to ‘take the fight’ to their opponents rather than get embroiled in infighting.
I still think that a large part of the LibNat’s climate denialism is about avoiding any serious confrontation that could split off a big chunk of their most loyal supporters who previously had their denialist views fully supported by a history of the Right opposing action on that issue. Turnbull might get away with crossing the floor but most will fall back into line even if they are well informed and consider it serious. Just not serious enough to risk that kind of infight.
@Michael of Summer Hill
Well Mosh – Katter wants some tariff walls up and so do I. Id like to see a large pair of garden shears put into the hands of the ineffectual bumbling ACCC when it comes to Coles, Woolies and Metcash as well.
If the US has “carve up” provisions in its competition laws and the EU has “carve up” provisions in its competition laws – what are we doing ruling those provisions out from our competition laws? (not listening to Fels)
That ACCC grocery report from Samuels et al was just so weak – they just rambled on “oh we think there is… just enough… competition in the sector – and then the quantum leap pf faith required – ” and many other Australian “big names”. Yet we are expected to believe the ACCCs assumption that it will (quite when is not indicated).
Maybe the ACCCs assumptions are just plain wrong – based as they are on the market models. Maybe the weak competition is all non price. Didnt they read the ologopoly chapter? I think the consumers and blind Freddy can see this far better than the ACCC who is working its own faulty assumptions (competition no matter how weak, always parlays itself into price effects) into the judgement process.
The ACCC – a body that exists to convince everyone everything is fine in the grocery sector and the sector only needs a little transparency bandaid (unit shelf pricing) when it really needs major invasive surgery.
If the Nats had any sense (in very short supply due to spending a lot of time giving up their constituents concerns to party with Lib power brokers – eg B1 and B2) they would ditch the liberals and form a Coalition with the Greens and Independents.
Alice, I should also stress the Crook does not trust the Abbott after losing one trillion dollars.
Alice, on a more serious note countries can and do put up tariffs in support of local manufacturers. One need look no further than the USA and how the government supports the local ethanol industry over imports.
@Michael of Summer Hill
Is there any one of the independents that trusts Abbott? Windsor doesnt, Katter doesnt, and Oakeshott doesnt trust the nationals. Wilke doesnt and Brandt certainly doesnt and now you tell me Crook doesnt.
If there is no trust why would they go there except for their own individual political futures (and once they go there they will get mugged into silent irrelevance anyway by the libs bully boys – like the nats have been for years /decades).
Well – its anyone’s guess. I think the independents must be starting to feel like it is they who are now wedged but they are not alone. We are all wedged between a rock and a hard place by red team blue team and the ugliest of all – media team.
Alice, all this nonsense about the L-NP and Independents patching up their differences in the short term is total bulldust. Once you have a very serious fallout as is the present case it will take a very long time to build bridges and trust each other, if ever.
TerjeP, this is for you and all your Libertarians who think the USA is some sort of role model. The US government imposes a tariff of 54 cents per gallon on the importation of most ethanol.
Its the right trend in the libs that is causing all the problems. The Nationals constituents seem to actually want Greens policies (better government services in regional areas, some industry protection, some publicly funded infrastructure development to support their regions). Yet they keep voting for Nationals who roll over and prostrate themselves to the free market pro private sector nuts in Liberals.
The whole situation becomes nutty when one party (libs) seems to be going against everything a large section of their own party (nationals) wants.
So the Nats and regional people cut off their own noses to spite their face and side with the liberals?.
Yet it gets even more crazy. Look at Anna Bligh for example. She is up there in QLD facing a monumental backlash for her own privatisation programme, as is NSW State Labor, and is now in “defend the coming state election mode” –
It wont help – the backlash against Blighs “liberal policies” went to the heart of the federal election. Yet the poor QLDers dont seem to realise that Bligh has in fact committed to core liberal policies (with her privatisation agenda which QLDers clearly dont want by a huge majority). So they will vote LNP in the coming state election and get the very same monster anyway.
None of it makes one ounce of sense to me.
@Alice
over the next three years, all is needed is one MP from whom ever is in government to go crazy or embittered and the whole horse-trading starts over again. The WA Nats MP is already in that position.
Howard controlled the senate in the late 1990s with the help of harradine and a labour rat.
I hope the boy MP from QLD does not let power go to his head. he is several years away from getting into a pub without being asked his ID.
@Jim Rose
JR the media is cranking up the “independents cconstituents want Abbott”: campaign. The polls run by Team media are just plain lies when the liberals have a young liberal network that spams these polls and the money to do it. Its all bull as Moshie says.
The Murdoch media are doing their level best to interfere in our political process (and in the US where the billionaires are bankrolling the teaparty movement). The libs are feral and are acting like bullies (whats new?).
It gets worse by the day for the lies, threats and obnoxious tactics but hey…where are they all coming from?
Team Liberal.
Now take a look at where the independents really got their votes and what their constituents really want them to do
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/
Dont open a Murdoch rag and dont believe a word the Australian media says. On the other hand if you are hearing about feral idiots in Liberals who act like complete bullies then that is likely very true (Shultz, Heffernan).
Are we hearing about any Labor politicians abusing and berating the independents JR??
NO.
JR – Thats because your people in the liberal party are I.N.S.A.N.E. Would you trust them with guns right now? No way.
Its so obvious all the libs want is another election. Thats because no one wants to work with them except the media.
Alice, I’ve been too busy to get on to this, but I would like to remind you to post only one comment per thread per day. To get some symmetry, I will make the same request of Jim Rose.
Oops – sorry JQ. Will do. I will take a break. Election antics driving me mad. Lucky for me JQ you have been off running – (and havent noticed till now). JR you and I are on detention and guilty as charged (although I admit Im more guilty than JR lately).
MoSH,
The day that I think that the US as it is currently governed is any sort of role model for a libertarian is the day that I start to think any number of ridiculous things. It is much closer to (although obviously not actually there) some sort of social democratic utopia than a liberal / libertarian one.
JQ. sounds like a parallel to the ABC with their “balance” policy.
For everything true (Alice) we must apply a similar amount of BS (J Rose)..
The USA a role model? Don’t be so efen stupid.