Australia: If you don’t love it, leave

I’ve seen this slogan, with an Australian flag, on bumper stickers, and Google reveals that it a similar T-shirt was the subject of controversy not so long ago.Ifyoudontloveit

I have a couple of thoughts on this

First, this supposedly patriotic slogan was imported from the US, where it has been around for decades. In this respect, it’s similar to the recent innovation of having a single performer sing the national anthem at sporting events (adopted in the US because The Star Spangled Banner is virtually unsingable). This has displaced the Australian tradition of either standing silently or singing as a group while the anthem was played.

Second, I’d encourage the slogan if those who spouted it were expected to act accordingly. That is, the moment they complained about any aspect of Australia (for example, Muslims, dole bludgers, greenies and so on) they would be issued with a deportation notice and told to find a country they could love as it is.

139 thoughts on “Australia: If you don’t love it, leave

  1. @kevin1

    Well, actually TerjeP said. “…fundamentally broken in regards to black communities in the USA.” This is ambiguous. It could be interpreted as “in” the black communities. It could also be interpreted as “in regards to” meaning something outside the black communities realting to and affecting the communities. There is an archaic meaning of regard “(of a thing) relate to;” In turn if you “relate” to a thing you could be referring to it or referring to something else that relates to it.

    At the time I pointed out it was ambiguous and we needed to remember the sociological and political economic context that black communities were inescapably embedded. But I did not accuse or mention the “R” word.

    I am being pedantically legalistic precisely because the moral seriousness of the accusation and the presumption of innocence both have a bearing on TerjeP’s public reputation or at least in-blog reputation here. TejeP can clarify or leave it as it is. I am undecided whether he ought to clarify. That is his decision. He has been put under a certain duress to clarify. He might now be weighing up whether he ought respond under duress in a kind of kangaroo court of opinion.

  2. If it will make Terje feel better, I’m quite sure I am a racist. I dislike most racial groups, although it usually turns out that the individual members of these groups that I actually meet often turn out to be the very odd exception to the rule. Thus I meet extroverted, noisy, Asian students who are lazy, caucasian students who work hard and don’t enjoy partying, etc etc.

  3. Without any sane basis I get called a racist. And now there are demands that I must explain myself. I object. This is crap. This is utter crap. It is a classic case of yelling “racist” to discredit a person and their argument without any basis. A means of derailing a discussion to avoid grappling with the issue at hand. And a case of defaming somebody for the sake of some petty notion of winning.

    Lets go back to the start and review what happened here. This is what I said that started this.


    “He was enraged that the high court wouldn’t defend his right to free speech by voiding community service penalties incurred for sending insulting letters to grieving families of Aussie soldiers.” — to be fair the high court judges did split evenly on the question. Unfortunately an even split means appeal failed. Personally I think the appeal should have been granted.


    I rest my case… Witness the desperate racism of the modern “libertarian”, who supports the right of a murderous lunatic to insult grieving mothers, because their peace of kind is worth less to him than his own right to say bigoted and racist things about an entire religion.

    The prosecution has rested their case. They claim to have shown that I am racist because a high court appeal was split 50/50 and I sided with one half of the bench. On a matter to do with free speech. On the question of whether Man Moris should be allowed to write offensive letters. If this makes me a racist then half the judges on the High Court bench must also be racist. But it’s really not clear which race is being persecuted here. In fact it’s a pile of crap. Just another case of somebody yelling “racist” to rally the mob. Base, crass and pathetic.

    Naturally I ask for some justification, some glimmer of logic. An apology. But apparently we need to change the topic instead. The prosecution has apparently not rested their case. They have some extra evidence they would like to present. They point to this comment I made on a different topic on an unrelated occassion last year:-


    However so long as we are discussing the USA it would be good to know why the murder of black people is so extreme in that nation. It massively tilts their homicide figures. I presume blacks are mostly killed by other blacks but I have not seen the data. Non blacks are still murdered at a rate higher than Australia but it’s more in line with developed nations. There seems to be something fundamentally broken in regards to black communities in the USA.

    You can fish all you like for racism in that comment. But it simply isn’t there. Nowhere did I say “white people are superior to black people”. Nor would I because the idea is obviously absurd. What I meant is what I said. There is a problem in black communities in the USA. They are being murdered at an abhorrent rate. But again seeing and yelling “racism” is a useful means for inserting your head in the sand, avoiding the issue raised, and rallying the mob.

    I am not a racist. An apology is due.

  4. @TerjeP

    You can see that at comment number 1 on this page (3) and in an earlier post, I defended your right to the presumption of innocence. I have not been one of those accusing you and finding you guilty in what I called “a kind of kangaroo court of opinion”.

    I happen to disagree quite strongly with some of your opinions on free speech and hate speech legislation. However, I would adduce this at most as evidence that you were mistaken and misguided in my opinion. (With an emphasis on “in my opinion”.) A much stronger test of evidence and possible proof is needed to accuse guilt of real and major overt crime be it moral or criminal. In addition, hypothetically attributed thought-crime is quite correctly not a crime yet. It is completely unprovable.

  5. How is anything you have said here racist? What a joke. The term racist has become debased and near meaningless by twits who throw it around whenever they have an argument. They are pathetic fools.@TerjeP

  6. I have trouble remembering a single post by Terje that I agree with (I’m pretty sure there have been a few, but I can’t remember them off-hand).

    But I’ve never found him racist.

  7. @Megan

    Terje appears to know what he is talking about when it comes to matters of electrical engineering. (I say appears because I don’t.) This is quite handy since there is a lot of discussion here about solar panels and the like.

  8. I am of the opinion that Man Moris should have been permitted to send his crap letters to whoever he pleased; once those letters were opened and read, the reader(s) would have had legal avenues for remedy, should the content of the letters have transgressed the law. Even if no legal remedy were available, they could have made the content of the letters—and the sender—public knowledge.

    It is a low thing to do though.

  9. @Tracy Bynes

    Both you and Terje are the ones blowing this up: one commenter talks of the ‘racism of the modern “libertarian”‘, and Terje says “I do know that there is this campaign by the left to turn the word “racist” into a meaningless snark”, yet a few hours later “But then It’s not coordinated or deliberate but it’s highly effective. We’re all racists now. Apparently.”

    That last word is an inference based on not very much, and a campaign which is not coordinated or deliberate is obviously no campaign at all. I can understand Terje being touchy but his response is out of proportion.

    The hot button issue here is that we know racist US right wingers see dysfunction in black communities as congenital, and it’s their fault. I invited Terje to expand on the libertarian position because I’m genuinely curious on how it considers the relationship with whites ie. the white community dysfunction. The question of Why? is appropriately at front and centre, with the related question of Who broke it? How is the answer to be framed?

  10. The word is being debased. In another online debate today I was again labeled a racist after I chimed in with one single statement that was one sentence long. My statement was “I would oppose a treaty”. Any opinion on anything slightly related to race that is not left wing is repeatedly called racist. It may not be a campaign but it is a virulent trend. The word might as well mean “I disagree with you”. It’s pretty obnoxious.

    I still think I’m due an apology.

  11. @TerjeP

    Apology from whom? This personal grievance you carry suggests what’s important is your precious feelings, rather than the canker of racialism, which is obviously disguised in a religious form nowadays and on which you have nothing to say except “not me”. It’s pathetic you privileged white man, get over it. Who cares about your personal values, the US is the home of Libertarians, so what is the analysis and policy about it?

    Reaching out to people who feel marginalised, developing social glue and empathy between the modern-day “tribes”, in other words community development, seems alien territory to the egoistic individualism of your philosophy, with its “bugger the consequences” approach. The Melbourne Herald Sun today reports an Australian university-run poll showing 20% of Islamic respondents feel there is some legitimacy to the radicals’ grievances. This is an important national issue!

    Time to fess up, Terje.

  12. I’m still interested to understand what Terje meant when he said that some communities were fundamentally broken. Specifically, if that helps, I’m wondering what and/or who he blames for that brokenness.

    It would be good if Terje could get over his tantrum – or is it a diversionary tactic? – and try to be rational and explain his thinking about violence and broken communities so that we can all understand what his beliefs about race are.

    I would also like him to explain what and how a word is “debased”?

  13. explain his thinking about violence and broken communities so that we can all understand what his beliefs about race are

    I don’t know why black Americans are murdered at a vastly higher rate than other Americans. I just think it is a troubling fact. That the numbers display such a significant racial divide also does suggest to me that social issues are a far bigger determinant of homicide that firearms policy. They seem to swamp everything else. And this was the original context in which I made my point. But again I don’t know the underlying reasons. If somebody has some answers other than mere speculation then I’d be very interested.

  14. This whole Paris killings/freedom of speech thing is getting weirder.

    Some BBC journalist called Tim Willcox has apparently caused “shock, outrage, fury” because of something he said while interviewing some people at the “unity” rally on sunday.

    From “Daily-Mail”:

    During a live report from the streets of Paris, Willcox was speaking to a number of participants in the march, including one woman who expressed her fears that Jews were being persecuted, and ‘the situation is going back to the days of the 1930s in Europe.’

    To this, Willcox, who was broadcasting on the BBC News channel replied: ‘Many critics though of Israel’s policy would suggest that the Palestinians suffer hugely at Jewish hands as well.’

    When the woman, shaking her head, responded saying: ‘We can’t do an amalgam’, he told her: ‘You understand everything is seen from different perspectives.’

    I can’t find the anti-semitism in that statement of a clear fact from Willcox.

    The double-standards over this “free speech” thing are standing out like sore thumbs.

    He wasn’t even criticising, he was simply doing that lazy journo thing “some would say…”.

  15. “does suggest to me that social issues are a far bigger determinant of homicide that firearms policy.”

    It is a good thing Terje that the fact that there are broken communities is suggesting to you that it might be something to do with social issues; so does this mean that you are wondering about the ‘truth’ or accuracy of the famous Thatcher line that there is no such thing as society?

    And if she didn’t understand that the social was the important thing, do you ever wonder if she might have been mistaken about other things?

    The thing is that it is a bit ‘stupid’ – well it seems that way to me but I am probably being judgemental – when you admit that you have a meagre understanding of the issues and yet you feel confident about exhibiting this and I know I am strange but it seems even stupider and lazy to me for you to admit that you are ignorant of the huge amount of knowledge based research that does exist on this issue and incredibly you believe that there is only ‘speculation’ available.

    It’s quite unfortunate that you can make such gormless statements that reveal your ignorance and your lack of shame about this fact and it seems to me that you need to take some responsibility to be informed before offering these vague comments. Have you thought that by asking others to provide you with their knowledge of the extant literature available on this topic you are being a free rider?

    Take some responsibility for yourself and read more widely than Andrew Bolt – although hey he posed a long Proust quote last week, I heard – did you enjoy that? I was wondering if he would do well in the “All-England Summarising Proust competion” – this Monty Python sketch is on utube.

    Oh and are you saying that there is nothing ‘social’ in the way firearm policies affect communities?

  16. The clash of civilisations theme is running hot . Via twitter Rupert has been putting the blame for extremists at the feet of the Muslim community in general .His papers reflect this thrust – in readers letters , op-ed’s asking if there is really and difference between extremists and moderate Islam (Herald Scum 2 days ago), and now todays The Australian front page trying to divide our Mulsim community. Disgusting. There is great momentum building ,maybe too much now for a reasonable hope of change ,but it is worth asking did we have to go down this road which goes all the way back to our response to S/11 and before, why did we go there ,and who drove us ?

    CH is not going bankrupt anymore, they are putting Mohammed on their front cover of millions .Would they publish cartoons of the Pope raping children ? Maybe they already have- I dont know.

  17. Julie – I must finally concede that trying to engaging with you in discussion is a complete waste of time. You seem to be a prime example of the Dunning–Kruger effect.

  18. @TerjeP

    Well, I am sure several (at least 3) professorial economists consider me a prime example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. 😉

    Racism is a big problem. I think there are two bigger problems behind it. On the political economy side, systems which entrench and even worsen inequality play a big role in creating dysfunctional sub-communities, neighbourhoods, ghettoes etc. On the sociological and psychological side, it has to do with ingroups and outgroups. On my observation (I have not formally studied sociology or psychology), most people demonstrate very considerable sympathy and empathy within their ingroup but in a large number of cases they demonstrate very little sympathy and empathy towards outgroups. The key here must be to break down insularity so people can understand their outgroup peoples better. Big call though. How is this to be done?

  19. I definitely suffer from D-K effect.

    A ‘prime’ ? example – is that I just lost a whole post informing Terje of his ‘diagnosis’ but not to feels special as this diagnosis can be applied to many people who suffer from the same dysfunctional personality ‘quirks’ that he does; this stupidity was because I didn’t remember to write my comment in Word – facepalm.

    I have no problem knowing that I am stupid sometimes and that I am racist sometimes. I don’t understand why it irritates Terje so much to be called these ‘names’.

    Terje reminds me of my mother who said a couple of decades ago; “I’m not prejudiced against the abo’s you know, it’s not their race or colour that I don’t like; it’s just that they are dirty and don’t keep their yard and their kids clean”.

    So lucky I had a father who explained clearly that my mother *was* ‘prejudiced’ – which seems to be the word used back then instead of the – apparently – debased term ‘racist’, and why the Aborigines didn’t live like we did.

    Maybe that is the answer Icon? Some people missed out on having good role models in their lives?

  20. @Julie Thomas

    “Maybe that is the answer Icon? Some people missed out on having good role models in their lives?”

    Hard to say, but I think it’s more than that. Parental influence, peer influence and innate psychological make-up all play a role.

    I do not think there is a “prejudice gene”. However, there do seem to be inherent variations in individuals in terms of matters on the selfishness to altruism scale. I have noticed, from unscientific observation admittedly, that more selfish, less empathetic individuals also tend have more right-wing views. There seems to be a connection. At the same time, another predictor, or at least a co-existing factor, for selfishness seems to be laziness, so I am now incriminating myself! I am rather lazy. I try not judge other people outside of formal and intrinsic power politics. For reasons which I think I can support, I judge major political actors with whom I strongly disagree very, very harshly: but that is OT.

  21. @Ikonoclast

    The key here must be to break down insularity so people can understand their outgroup peoples better. Big call though. How is this to be done?

    Yes, this is the theme of Roman Krznaric, whose book Empathy: a Handbook for Revolution I have had the pleasure of reading recently.# Perhaps its core is that political understanding is now – and will be – based around identity not class, and the task is to promote the Platinum Rule “do unto others as they would have you do unto them”. (Rather than sympathy or compassion, empathy is seen as necessary: the Golden Rule presumes to know what they want.)

    Briefly his take on history is that the First Wave of empathy with its formation of humanitarian groups/movements and demands for rights/equality including for “distant strangers” emerged from the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment; the Second Wave post WW2 was to new groups: refugees, oppressed minorities, US civil rights, Amnesty, Oxfam, MSF etc.; the Third Wave we are now in centres around deepening personal relationships based on using evolutionary biology and neuroscience.

    There have been mass empathic collapses – the Crusades, colonialism, the Holocaust – but collective empathy too: in WW2 Britain children were relocated to the country and for the first time welloff rural families were exposed to kids from urban slums; PM Chamberlain said “I never knew that such conditions existed, and I feel ashamed of having been so ignorant of my neighbours”; social welfare expenditure based on the Poor Laws was increased, prior to the 1942 Beveridge Report, due to this empathy surge. AJP Taylor said “the Luftwaffe was a powerful missionary for the welfare state”. What would happen now in international empathy if children from Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria were to be billeted into foster homes in Europe, Australia, N. America?

    Rather than explain his theory of cognitive and affective empathy, let me report some of his other examples:

    * the Roots of Empathy program in primary schools in Canada, UK, Germany, NZ – a class ‘adopts’ a baby, whose parents visit them regularly during the year; the pupils watch the baby’s emotional and cognitive development, its changing relationship with the parents, and do empathic art and drama based on this; it is said to dramatically reduce bullying, encourage cooperation, improve relationships with parents, and boost grades; because it is experiential learning, it works; in Britain it was folded into the SEAL program, which focuses on teaching empathy, self-awareness and managing feelings, and 80% of primary and secondary schools have voluntarily taken it on; its creator has a vision of the next generation having the tools to deal with world problems, through taking the perspective of another, identifying shared feelings and conflict solving: “the best peace pill we have.”

    * Parents Circle-Families Forum – about 600 Israeli and Palestinian families who have a member killed in the conflict get together to promote exchange and reconciliation; one initiative is the Hello Peace phone line where members of the public can be put through to someone from the other side to talk to them for up to half an hour; over a million conversations happened from 2002-9: a lot of screaming, but a lot of lasting friendships, and exchanges of medicines etc; Blood Relations is where bereaved families travel to the other side to donate blood: “Could you hurt someone who has your blood running through their veins?”(The Other Son is a good film on this theme BTW)

    * other examples are Dialogue in the Dark, a blind experiential exhibition, operates globally, the Charter for Compassion of 6 faith groups, the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, the Hard Rain Project exhibition to illustrate climate change, habitat loss, poverty, human rights issues promotes empathy over ‘space’, and over ‘time’ the 2009 film The Age of Stupid shows an old man in 2055 looking back over a devastated world and asking why didn’t ‘they’ stop their ‘carbon crimes’.

    I have seen myself the mobilisation of latent resources of generosity and the adaptive ability of mainstream society to social difference and dysfunction within the relatively short time of 30 years: the huge leaps in understanding, tolerance and now active support (eg. NDIS) towards disabled and autistic children. This is largely because they came out of the shadows and were humanised; the rapid acceptance gays as full societal members and gay marriage surely has surprised everyone; the Sorry marches as an expression of wide support is evident, although the realisation of the goal is less clear.

    These are not just “programs” but ways of moulding thinking, and removing fear and prejudice through encounters which foster an awareness of social commonalities.

    #this is not said in the same spirit as Milton Berle: “I wonder if you have ever had the exquisite delight of reading Marcel Proust? I know I haven’t.”

  22. @Ikonoclast

    But surely the job of the parent or the guardian or whoever raises a child is to moderate the expression of the child’s genes so that their behaviour when they reach adulthood is functional within their society?

    Laziness like stupidity is relative; it is a judgement of people’s value based on the cultural norms that we accept. These characteristics are not necessarily bad choices in other cultures that do not over value material wealth or possessions and individuality and competition over cooperation.

    Some of us do inherit a genetic tendency to be more lazy and less empathic than others, but in a society that recognises that every child has a right to be the best they can be, children are ‘raised up’ so that they do become functional and valued members of the society. I’d say forager societies with all their initiation ceremonies and tests of manhood and womanhood had this as their most important life task; to ensure the continuity of their society.

    And it seems to me that the recent evidence is showing that all the ‘bad’ genes *can* be modified to express themselves in a way that is approved of by the society.

    One argument that impresses me about the flexibility of our genes and how they can be radically altered by the environment, is by Dave Dobbs in a blog called “-its-time-to-lay-the-selfish-gene-to-rest”; It is in Aeon magazine.

    The other evidence that seems quite convincing to me is James Fallon, a Neuroscientist who says he has psychopath genes but he is not a psychopath because of the way he was raised.

    There is an article on him in Salon, “this_is_your_brain_on_murder_what_the_mind_of_a_psychopath_looks_like/”

    I’m not sure about this Salon article; I can’t find the one I was looking for about this professor.

    There is a discussion happening about whether right wing people are less intelligent as the evidence seems to show, but this is correlation and not causation.

    I think most people like my mother who claim to be not racist without having seriously examined their tendency to judge others by the narrow values they hold, just didn’t get out much among the ‘other’ people and this type of person or personality don’t ‘like’ having to examine their assumptions; they feel attacked if you try to persuade them to share their reasoning.

    This dislike of different things and others, could be based on their genetic predisposition and/or be a result of an isolated upbringing that did not provide for the sort of experiences and thinking that would encourage them to see any value in different ways of doing things.

    But if a person with a reluctance to experience different things, because of genes, grew up in a diverse and functional society that valued cultural differences the person would be very likely to overcome their genetic tendencies and be more like their society. No?

  23. @kevin1

    Yes, I agree, Everything you mention is good. I’ve sometimes had the idea that a story (short story or novel) could be written around the idea of someone, like a US fighter-bomber pilot, shot down after bombing inadvertantly a school or a wedding deep in the tribal lands. He is captured, taken and shown all the damage he has done, all the maimed and mutilated bodies. Then he is kept under guard and required to work in the community and the area. He witnesses more bombings and the results; hides with women, children and local fighters sheltering from bombing raids. His own life is in danger too. A kind of Stockholme syndrome sets in. After all he gets to see the human, good and desperate sides of the people he is with. He lives there for some time. Finally escaping or even being released he makes his way back to “civilisation” and is de-mobbed etc.. His progress and reactions are shown especially when he encounters expressions of cruelty, hate and indifference towards the peoples he learned about.

    Of course variants of this story have been done and maybe even this story. It could certainly be powerful if done right.

  24. @Julie Thomas

    In the great majority of cases, people brought up correctly, as you and I would define it, turn out reasonably decent and not racist, prejudiced etc. At least, that is my observation. So, I agree with you.

    Laziness is an interesting thing. Yes, I am very lazy in some senses. However, quite a bit of my laziness seems rational to me. It seems to me I don’t feel impelled to do much if I am comfortable. I don’t seem to see the need for constant “slaving” at this, that and the other (petty stuff) if I am already safe, secure and fed. I’d rather do something I find interesting.

    Yet I notice that when the “sh*t hits the fan” or there is some sudden need for serious work or extensive planning I can go into “overdrive” and this can last for months if necessary.

    Even my physiology seems to support this. I am (a) basically lazy unless prodded by others or external challenges and (b) when so prodded or challenged I can go into extended overdrive. I get a “second-wind” when others flag (though not compared to a tri-athlete). After about 3 to 5 days extended activity my endurance builds rapidly compared to many people at least of my age (though being a bit overweight is compromising this). I can easily sustain activity for 24 to 48 hours without food (being fat helps there) and have done it, though I need potable water of course. I can sustain weeks or even months of more intense work activity if need be on a consistent 4 to 5 hours sleep. But when things ease up I go back to being a bit of a sloth tho 6 to 7 hours sleep is still enough for me: maybe 8 if am working physically hard day in day out.

    So I happen to think I am adapted to take things easy when they are easy and go into more a of a “surivival mode” when things get serious. It’s a logical adaptation in my view but the modern construction of wage-work plus house-proudness plus keeping with the Jonses attempts to dicatate we must be in a constant state of anxiety about never doing enough and this must find outlets in “pointless busy work” as the Dilbert comic strip terms it.

  25. @Ikonoclast

    There are many examples of course of soldiers who defect, desert or return home to oppose war. The book I mention gives some interesting info about the famous 1930 Academy Award-winning film All’s Quiet on the Western Front. It caused shockwaves, being banned in Austria, Italy, NZ, USSR and China, and heavily censored in Australia, France and other countries. Why? Because the empathy felt by the main character towards the French soldier who he killed and was then stuck with him in the trench while fighting continued outside, was regarded as subversive to nationalist loyalties. The author had to flee Germany, but his sister was charged with assisting him, tried and beheaded in 1944. The main actor (who became a conscientious objector in WW2) said it “showed the Germans as having the same values as you and I have…just people caught up in this thing that’s better than all of us.” In the film he reaches inside the soldier’s coat and looks at his papers,including a photo of the wife and daughter, a unique individual with a family. He weeps and promises to seek out the family: “If you jumped in here again, I wouldn’t do it. You see, when you jumped in here, you were my enemy – and I was afraid of you. But you’re just a man like me, and I killed you…I’ll write to your wife…I promise she’ll not want for anything…Only forgive me.” Not a message rulers want their subjects to heed.

    Some would say the film Avatar had some of the same empathic power, though the raw simplicity of All’s Quiet… doesn’t let gadgetry overwhelm the message. The film No Fire Zone about the last weeks of the Sri Lankan civil war was shot mostly with hand-held video cameras from within the refugee group being bombed, and it’s hard not to be affected by the counterposition of the mayhem with the grinning face of evil in the person of President Rajapaksa at his press conferences.

    What I find attractive about this is it is not another individual self-help program, but an attempt to harness collectively and refine the outpouring of generalised interest and disquiet in the world about important issues. Perhaps new technology and growth of wealth have provided the pre-conditions for more lofty aspirations to become realisable, and borders and assumptions of all types to melt.

    It would also be wrong to see the Roman Krznaric approach as tugging of the heartstrings, the idlea is to generalise understanding – not pity – through cognitive empathy, reducing the cultural and social obstacles of prejudice, authority, distance, denial by direct apprehension. And it’s based on listening. He says that studies of labour negotiations show the time to reach conflict resolution is halved when each side agrees, before responding, to accurately repeat what the last speaker said; in informal situations this can be too artificial, he says it works better with kids than adults.

  26. @Ikonoclast

    I think you are misunderstanding me but whatever, 🙂 It is rude and impolite I have been told, to insist on explaining my point – apparently I even mansplain things. 😦

    I wasn’t suggesting that there is *a* correct way to bring up a child. The point is that if a society wants to perpetuate itself successfully then the most obvious way is for every child that will become the society of the future needs to be raised to be the sort of adult who *wants* to be part of their society and contribute.

    Laziness is an adaptive behaviour as all activity uses resources so it is more efficient for us to be lazy if we can and especially thinking uses a lot of energy so it could be that only a few strange people enjoy thinking just for fun and recreation.

    There is something wrong with a societies that raise some people who cannotome an adult if the society requires that ‘individuals’ take responsibility for themselves There is a rational functional way and then there is the way priviliged white boys are raised which creates selfish and greedy so-called adults who are still children.

  27. oppps being lazy and not proof reading again. The last paragraph is rubbish and should have been deleted.

  28. Having lived in Southern Africa for several years at the time of the Soweto uprising and the war in Rhodesia in my early twenties perhaps gave me an unique perspective or insight into racism. One thing I learned is not to call it by it’s name, because for one it is a complex social issue, second as such an unproductive label to use in general discussion and third it is so pervasive that almost everyone, me included, is in some form or another practising it as an indicator of difference. (apology to Iko for the ‘soft science’ references)

    As a longterm lurker and occasional commentator, may I suggest to refrain from the personal and return to address the issue with substance that does justice to the quality of Prof JQ’s blog. We are on the slippery slope to Cattle taxy standards.

  29. (Note – due to moderating issues second link to ” …indicator of difference …” will be posted in comment below)

    Having lived in Southern Africa for several years at the time of the Soweto uprising and the war in Rhodesia in my early twenties shaped my perspective or insight into racism. One thing I learned is not to call it by it’s name, because for one it is a complex social issue, second as such an unproductive label to use in general discussion and third it is so pervasive that almost everyone, me included, is in some form or another practising it as an indicator of difference. (apology to Iko for the ‘soft science’ references)

    As a longterm lurker and occasional commentator, may I suggest to refrain from the personal and return to address the issue with substance and do justice to the quality of Prof JQ’s blog. We are on the slippery slope to Cattle taxy standards.

  30. In his book “12 years a slave” Solomon Northup describes how he was prevented from giving evidence at the trial of his kidnappers because he was coloured – despite being a free man of New York. The evidence presented by his kidnapper was of a lost document, the fact of which was accepted thereby securing his dismissal.

    Slavery was more to do with ownership than colour.

  31. I’m not monitoring this thread closely enough to see who’s at fault, but please stick to civil discussion, and avoid personal attacks.

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