Sandpit

A new sandpit for long side discussions, conspiracy theories, idees fixes and so on.

To be clear, the sandpit is for regular commenters to pursue points that distract from regular discussion, including conspiracy-theoretic takes on the issues at hand. It’s not meant as a forum for visiting conspiracy theorists, or trolls posing as such.

263 thoughts on “Sandpit

  1. One good reason to split up finance and big business is its the only way for us to get rid of this junk physics.

  2. Exciting new thread. One cannot ignore the two big bailouts and the constant ongoing bailouts that the Federal Reserve perpetrates. This is the real cause of the bloated stock market. This is straight theft off the public and passing on the benefit to the finance sector. Small banks tend to lend to small businesses. Middle banks to middling businesses. The huge banks are lazy and don’t create wealth. They just funnel credit to the big guys who they feel cannot go broke. They practice interest apartheid and give the established players an advantage. In terms of new players they try to confer network effects on only one or two chosen players. So for example they created the billionaire CEO of Amazon through many many years of extending cheap credit so that Amazon could swallow almost all network effects. Same all down the line which is why since Steve Jobs died the big guys look increasingly like a bunch of clowns.

    Everyone believes in economies of scale and you see it everywhere, except in the data (Taleb). Economies of scale don’t go much beyond single site considerations. Firms of lets say 450 people should be quite sufficient to take care of 90% of economies of scale. The rest of advantages to size are anti-social for the most part. To do with grasping more of the banker subsidy, better negotiating with the rest of the chain of production, having in-house accountant tax wizards so they don’t have to pay their fair share.

    An exception might be with Walmart where they had at one stage 40 000 product lines and no inventories. So they could take advantage of all these interstate highways and of cheaper real estate on the edge of town. So there is a real productive effect here. But a closer look will show that they have buggered settlement policy and destroyed the idea of streets with 3-5 story buildings and a shop on the first floor. Which made accommodation affordable, made the streets like outdoor rooms, the towns walkable and so forth. We cannot put our faith in improving retail productivity. Thats a one-off effect and retail power is getting in the way of productive power throughout the chain.

    In our country we see Coles and Woolworths buying up everything due to their access to cheap credit. They hog profits that should be better spread along the production chain. And the layout of the big retailer gets in the way of rational town planing which might allow walkable towns with reduced need for cars. The growth of the big retailer came about as a financial play. Westfarmers shopping centres, Coles and Woolworths are all basically features of modern banking dysfunction. We already had enough retail space before these unnatural growths descended upon us. And they represent a misallocation of investment away from production and towards unnecessary retail space. Classic monopoly power. An old phrase for some of you but a new phrase for me: “differential accumulation” …. That phrase seems very appropriate here.

    One very loveable conservative, when he had his consultancy, showed that Coles and Woolworths were perverting local government decisions.

    Sole trader run businesses of not more than 450 people should be quite sufficient to take advantage of all socially helpful economies of scale.

  3. “Clearly Marxists, Veblenians and Capital as Power (CasP) theorists have been writing about this issue for quite some time. Are more orthodox economists just discovering this issue or has it been in the orthodox literature for some time?”

    The profession likes models and there didn’t seem a way to model Veblen’s thinking. We were stuck within the mental space of Frank Knight. Frank Knight gave us those perfect competition, oligopoly and monopoly depictions.

    Plus the profession was segregated in such a way as to assist differential accumulation through debt. So economists and economics boffins might read Veblen and agree. But there was no good way to model this stuff.

    Nitzan is where the three gorges dam breaks. Because the market power, outright thieving through the central banking system, eternally feeble labour market, generally obnoxious behaviour, and incredibly weak economic performance, has gotten so oppressive that we cannot ignore these factors any more.

    I endorse ikon’s reading recommendation for both the left and the right.

  4. SighTation – or is this a
    *’Reference’. *
    faustusnotes says:
    August 1, 2020 at 6:36 pm
    “(see what I did there KT2?)”

    Gee fowsty old boy – didn’t learn a thing.

    And your powers of comprehension and text parsing, as Ikon is finding out, make anything not confirming your biases ripe for disdain, derision, and – help out here J-D, what is word for know it all starting with D please.

    – yet as you might think fowsty old boy, ‘a teachable moment ‘.

    rofl.

    * Reference *
    “Ideas of reference or delusions of reference involve a person having a belief or perception that irrelevant, unrelated or innocuous things in the world are referring to them directly or have special personal significance. ”
    https://psychology.wikia.org/wiki/Ideas_of_reference

    Cuts both ways fowsty.

    Getting colder…

  5. Just a reminder to anyone who is not paying attention. People who create, sell, buy, or possess crypto currencies should be not shown any mercy. If anyone is up for it I can give a much more detailed discription of what it means not to be shown any mercy. It starts with Mercury…….and other Greco-Roman Gods.

  6. Crypto currencies are still another example of systemic conspiratorial corruption. Some years ago enough pressure was put on Switzerland to amend it banking secrecy laws that criminals were forced to develope a new method of money laundering.
    But from a purely technical point of view it would not be hard to stamp out this insideous practice of trading in crypto currencies if governments really wanted to. I know this because I am not even close to being an expert on how the internet works and even I can figure out how to stop trading in crypto currencies in 5 easy steps. The first step is to declare crypto currencies a form of counterfiting.
    But the governments of the world have shown no interest what so ever on cracking down on the practice of creating and trading in crypto currencies.
    The motive for such a lack of interest is that it would conflict with the interests of corrupt rulers to launder their money and to commit tax evasion. There is complete silence on this subject because those media moguls who control the public discourse have no interest in holding the corrupt political rulers accountable for their behavior.
    If I had a direct line to Warrant Officers that fly US and Australian, British, and Canadian Helicopters I would tell them, if you want to earn your pay you need to fire your Hellfire missles not in to a ISIS training camp. You need to fire your Hellfire missles in to the offices of the major newspapers and and TV stations and major political party headquarters and even consider lighting up the major political party conventions.
    Let what happened in a high tech Sierra California research facility a few years ago and in the future be an Ernesto Warring to you. And do not let Psychologists psyc you out. The Seniel Bastards.

  7. I just noticed something that I have never written about……..here on this site.
    It involves the definition of a Republic. Words often do not have any real meaning. This definition will give meaning to the word Republic. A Republic could be a democracy. But it does not have to be. I myself would strongly discourage the idea of one person one vote until such time until such a time that the ruling bodhisattavas deem it prudent.
    A Republc is a society that seeks to eliminate all customs, institutions, and ideologies of human exploitation. (Some exploitation, but not torture, of other speices is permissable) The Consitution of a Republic also emphasises institutional checks and balances. Privacy, let alone secrecy, is discouraged as being a catalyst for morally deviant behavior. Not only the formal education system but all institutions of the society are directed to training the population to be virtuous. When it is so is when the population is prepared to have a voice in its further developement.
    Yes this is all an example of circular reasoning. Big fraggind deal, circles are a common natural phenomenon. That scientifically proves that I am right. It is not my problem that most sceintists can not figure that out.

  8. Low interest rates extended to the banks is the banking system stealing off the public. Its really about that simple. Much better to have socialised banks lending at zero interest to the sole traders. In such a way as to gain a notional interest rate back, by way of the taxation system.

  9. The rest of the profession pushes back on the economist when he suggests that banking should be a public utility. But surely by now we have to admit he was proven right? This is something that goes beyond left and right. Good and evil. Its just the pure practicality of the matter.

    But we can go further because if loans are made towards sole traders in such a way as to create new employment and greater production then loan provision by the government is essentially costless. Interest need not be charged. The interest payment is the employment of a new employee, due purely to the phenomenon that the sole trader has more producer goods and therefore needs more employees.

    Libertarians have no comeback for this, except amongst other libertarians since other libertarians can be accused of heresy. Just the other day a lot of you were looking for a magic pudding. Well here it is.

  10. A person can know that they are pressing on someone’s elbow funny bone when the brain that that elbow is attached to tries to shame the person pressing their thumb in to that funnybone to let go.

  11. “More from Shell. It now has a carbon offset division, which has just bought an Australian farming sequestration specialist, Select Carbon. “Select Carbon currently runs 70 projects covering 9 million hectares, an area larger than South Carolina.”

    So counter-productive its unbelievable. These projects are a pockmark on the land since they are taking arable land out of production. The whole concept of having a sequestration specialist is a rebellion against holistic thinking. All these single purpose operations are a rebellion against holism because we need systems where functions are stacked. Stacking functions.

    So floating solar at sea if its single purpose will always be a dud. But one day if all electrical maintenance problems have been mitigated it could be part of a wider system of greatness. It could be supporting an operation that stacked functions.

    So floating solar might constitute an artificial reef which leads to explosive sea-life production. It could be providing some of the hydrogen for an operation which turned all manner of waste into hydro-carbons by adding heat and hydrogen in a low oxygen environment. It could be part of a wider system of mostly submerged floating reefs that our submarines hide behind and our fishermen rely on. See my examples are really dubious and inadequate I’m just trying to make the point that for anything to work its got to be integrated in a system where you do things for many reasons.

    But swinging back to this practice of single purpose carbon sequestration firms …. Trees are necessary in any permaculture setup. Even one that emphasises herding animals. But once you grow a monocultural bunch of trees as part of a carbon trading swindle, thats the projects carbon sequestration tapped out for the most part. A monoculture of anything signals the end of sound soil development.

    If you get away from CO2 panic for a little while, put that cold cloth on your forehead, you will see that the best way to inter carbon is to create many feet of rich black soil …….. (yes infused with rock dust would be AWESOME) …… with the first step as land hydration. So land hydration is the key.

    Always when you are thinking trees for carbon internment …. or solar for the electricity grid ….. Or any ad hoc single purpose solution …. Whenever you go down that track you have rebelled against holistic thinking and your scheming will wind up being about wealth destruction.

  12. “(a) Criminal and antisocial people who flout restrictions and lock-downs.
    (b) Hard core capitalists who say “open up no matter how many people die”.
    (c) Conspiracy nuts, science denialists and quack cure peddlers.”

    Moronic bloodymindedness from Ikon whose philosophical training is domain dependent. He is coming out full guns blazing for mass murder via treatment denial, without a scintilla of evidence in his favour. Still while I’m grateful for him referring me to the Nitzan/Bichler research project, you would have to say that ikon’s devotion to philosophy is schizoid at best.

    We don’t know how much lockdown would be optimal under a scenario where the terrorists campaign of treatment denial had been overcome. We would have to cross that bridge when we came to it. But to suggest that treatment denial must continue for ideological reasons …. Thats murderous crazy talk.

    Vaccines may be useful in some afflictions if it wasn’t criminals running their production. Small business would surely do a better job and be held more accountable. The rabies vaccine is absolutely necessary and virtually 100% effective, consisting of three shots after getting bitten. We should be stockpiling this vaccine because if you don’t have it thats pretty much all your options gone and the terrorists won’t stop at Covid. But rabies is a very peculiar virus. And there has never been a successful vaccine for a Covid virus. So using the phantom of a Covid vaccine as an excuse for murderous terrorist-inspired treatment denial ….. Thats got some ways to go as a form competent public policy.

    See the lady who only had a sore throat yesterday and has laboured breathing today? What sort of monster wouldn’t want to give her some HCQ to clear that breathing up so at least she can get some rest with her lungs clear?

    High dose vitamin C intravenous will buy people time with almost any virus. High existing levels of vitamins D and A provide enormous protection against any virus which is why influenza spreads as if it were a vitamin D deficiency disease. Zinc, zinc ionophores and selenium help with most viruses as well. The virus depletes those factors that are responsible for fighting it so you wind up in a vicious circle. So you have to have all tools on the table to avoid, or get out of, any vicious cycle.

    Imagine taking out treatment and preparation from the equation? Comfortable mask-wearing in strategic places should be part of the answer sure. I’m not coming out against targeted lockdowns. But the idea of factoring out treatment is outrageous. Where did it come from? The answer is it was built into the terrorist attack. It had to be right from the start.

  13. alright, “ahh’ll bay ernderstaindung tew furn thuh thangs aah’m tew stewpud erv.

    drive-by? isn’t that some kind of usa phenomenon concerning deadly weapons?

  14. I’ll ask around to see if its international stupid people day. may is it your birthday? Its your birthday isn’t may?

    If not tell me why I should be talking to you two?

  15. Classic Radio Stories,

    Where is your evidence for a “campaign” of “murderous terrorist-inspired treatment denial”? Where is your scientific evidence for this and where is you reportage evidence for this from reliable sources? So far you haven’t provided a “scintilla of evidence” for your incoherent conspiracy theories.

    On the other hand, the peer-reviewed medical evidence on COVID-19 treatments lists none of the treatment and/or prevention items you mention. There is no scientific evidence to date from any reputable scientific source that any of those treatments work. Indeed, there is considerable evidence that they do not work and that some are even contra-indicated, especially in combination.

    Indeed, one wonders what motive any medical authorities and pharma companies would have to prevent viable treatments. Treatments would make money (for some) and save lives. What rationale would the aforementioned parties have to oppose this? It doesn’t make sense in any shape or form.

    Put up your “evidence” and links or shut up.

    I’ve already put up the CDC site link. Here’s a pharma link.

    https://www.goodrx.com/blog/coronavirus-treatments-on-the-way/

    Beware of the remdesivir “trap”. The one study had no controls and is already heavily questioned. The results have not proven replicable. Studies with hydroxychloroquine plus remdesivir so far show they are contraindicated in combination.

    Finally, do you know anything about science? Do you know about controls, controlling for variables, double-blind studies, the need for reproducibility of results and the importance of understanding causative mechanisms and not just relying on correlation (since correlation does not equal causation)? Do you understand the care and checking needed in the medical science since lives are at stake? I seriously doubt that you do. Indeed, I seriously doubt that you are well. As one other person has already suggested on this blog. Make sure you seek medical advice and assistance for your mental state, in a COVID-19-safe manner obviously.

  16. “Where is your evidence for a “campaign” of “murderous terrorist-inspired treatment denial”? ”

    Just take the ABC’s fireside chat for an example. They campaign against HCQ every single show. These are not doctors these two. The campaign against HCQ was there right from the start with Fauci and everyone else included. Australia sent out a notice to the doctors to deny treatment. I know because when I went to get a prescription thats what the doctor told me. They had been instructed to refuse treatment to those that actually needed it.

    All evidence testifies to the effectiveness of HCQ. None against. We knew it worked even before the outbreak of Sars-2. We knew it worked as far back as 2005.

    Since you are an idiot, you just enter into name-calling for anything that actually works. A failure to notice this behaviour within yourself is simple incapacity in introspection.

  17. Lets have your evidence or admit that you are acting in a mindless and murderous fashion. Put up or shut up. Actually lets have your retraction right now.

  18. You going to show up with some evidence or are you going to just sit there with egg on your face. The campaign was huge and it consisted largely of running a series of trials that were designed to fail.

  19. “Finally, do you know anything about science?”

    A lot more than you. Epistemology would be my specialty. Now lets have some evidence. Terrorist propaganda is not evidenced. So we start with 70 years of experience with HCQ including with Sars-1. You pick it up from there.

    If you are lost for ideas you could review one of the HCQ studies you are relying on and show how it WASN’T designed to fail. You didn’t check did you? No you didn’t. You just went along with the treatment denial campaign.

  20. “Finally, do you know anything about science?”

    A lot better than you. Epistemology would be my specialty. Now lets have some evidence. Terrorist propaganda is not evidence. So we start with 70 years of experience with HCQ including successful use with Sars-1. You pick it up from there.

    If you are stuck for ideas you might want to pull out one of the HCQ studies that were designed to fail. That was a huge part of the campaign for treatment denial.

  21. From your own link:

    “There are no approved coronavirus treatments at this time.”

    If thats not evidence for a campaign of treatment denial what would be? Even with tuberculosis they had the good sense to recommend sunbathing. But here they refuse to approve treatments so they are tying the hands of the doctors in many areas. HCQ has been approved for any number of things for 70 years. So solid evidence for murderous treatment denial.

  22. Still not one link to evidence from Classic Radio Stories. No evidence for the “campaign” of murderous terrorist-inspired treatment denial”. No evidence for the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine as a COVID-19 preventative or treatment.

    https://www.drugs.com/hydroxychloroquine.html

    “What is hydroxychloroquine?

    Hydroxychloroquine is a quinoline medicine used to treat or prevent malaria, a disease caused by parasites that enter the body through the bite of a mosquito. Malaria is common in areas such as Africa, South America, and Southern Asia. This medicine is not effective against all strains of malaria.

    Hydroxychloroquine is not effective against all strains of malaria, or against malaria in areas where the infection has been resistant to a similar drug called chloroquine.

    Hydroxychloroquine is also used to treat symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis and discoid or systemic lupus erythematosus.

    Important Information

    Hydroxychloroquine can cause dangerous effects on your heart, especially if you also use certain other medicines including the antibiotic azithromycin (Z-Pak). Seek emergency medical attention if you have fast or pounding heartbeats and sudden dizziness (like you might pass out).

    Taking hydroxychloroquine long-term or at high doses may cause irreversible damage to the retina of your eye that could progress to permanent vision problems.

    Stop taking hydroxychloroquine and call your doctor at once if you have blurred vision, trouble focusing, distorted vision, blind spots, trouble reading, changes in your color vision, increased sensitivity to light.

    Before taking this medicine

    You should not use hydroxychloroquine if you are allergic to hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine.

    High doses or long-term use of hydroxychloroquine may cause irreversible damage to your retina (the membrane layer inside your eye that helps produce vision). This could progress to permanent vision problems. The risk of retinal damage is higher in people with pre-existing eye problems, kidney disease, or people who also take tamoxifen.

    To make sure hydroxychloroquine is safe for you, tell your doctor if you have ever had:

    vision changes or damage to your retina caused by an anti-malaria medication;
    heart disease, heart rhythm disorder (such as long QT syndrome);
    diabetes;
    a stomach disorder;
    an allergy to quinine;
    liver or kidney disease;
    psoriasis;
    alcoholism;
    porphyria (a genetic enzyme disorder that causes symptoms affecting the skin or nervous system); or
    a genetic enzyme deficiency called glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency.

    Hydroxychloroquine is not approved for treating lupus or rheumatoid arthritis in anyone younger than 18 years old.

    How should I take hydroxychloroquine?

    Take hydroxychloroquine exactly as prescribed by your doctor. Follow all directions on your prescription label and read all medication guides or instruction sheets.

    Take hydroxychloroquine with a meal or a glass of milk unless your doctor tells you otherwise.

    To treat lupus or arthritis, hydroxychloroquine is usually taken daily.

    To prevent malaria: Hydroxychloroquine is usually taken once per week on the same day each week. Start taking the medicine 2 weeks before entering an area where malaria is common. Keep taking the medicine during your stay and for at least 4 weeks after you leave the area.

    To treat malaria: Hydroxychloroquine is usually given as one high dose followed by smaller doses during the next 2 days in a row.

    Use this medicine for the full prescribed length of time, even if your symptoms quickly improve.

    Call your doctor as soon as possible if you have been exposed to malaria, or if you have fever or other symptoms of illness during or after a stay in an area where malaria is common.

    Use protective clothing, insect repellents, and mosquito netting around your bed to further prevent mosquito bites that could cause malaria.

    No medication is 100% effective in treating or preventing all types of malaria. Talk with your doctor if you have fever, vomiting, or diarrhea during your treatment.

    While using hydroxychloroquine, you may need frequent medical tests and vision exams.

    Store at room temperature away from moisture, heat, and light.
    Hydroxychloroquine dosing information

    Usual Adult Dose for Malaria Prophylaxis:

    400 mg salt (310 mg base) orally once a week

    Weight-based dosing: 6.5 mg/kg salt (5 mg/kg base) orally once a week
    -Maximum dose: 400 mg salt (310 mg base)/dose

    Comments:
    -This drug should be administered on the same day of each week.
    -Suppressive therapy should begin 2 weeks prior to exposure and should continue for 4 weeks after leaving the endemic area.

    Use: For the prophylaxis of malaria in geographic areas where chloroquine resistance is not reported

    US CDC Recommendations: 310 mg base (400 mg salt) orally once a week

    Comments:
    -An alternative to chloroquine for prophylaxis only in areas with chloroquine-sensitive malaria
    -Prophylaxis should start 1 to 2 weeks before travel to malarious areas; should continue weekly (same day each week) while in malarious areas and for 4 weeks after leaving such areas
    -If malaria develops while using this drug for chemoprophylaxis, it should not be used as part of the treatment regimen.
    -Current guidelines should be consulted for additional information.

    Usual Adult Dose for Malaria:

    800 mg salt (620 mg base) orally as an initial dose, followed by 400 mg salt (310 mg base) at 6, 24, and 48 hours after the initial dose
    Total dose: 2000 mg salt (1550 mg base)

    Weight-based dosing:
    -First dose: 13 mg/kg salt (10 mg/kg base) orally
    -Second dose (6 hours after first dose): 6.5 mg/kg salt (5 mg/kg base) orally
    -Third dose (24 hours after first dose): 6.5 mg/kg salt (5 mg/kg base) orally
    -Fourth dose (48 hours after first dose): 6.5 mg/kg salt (5 mg/kg base) orally

    Maximum Dose:
    -First dose: 800 mg salt (620 mg base)/dose
    -Second, third, and fourth dose: 400 mg salt (310 mg base)/dose.”

    There is much more information. Basically, it’s an anti-malaria drug also useful for treating lupus or rheumatoid arthritis in persons over 18. It’s not approved for anything else yet for good reason. It’s a powerful and risky drug with serious side-effects and no yet known mechanism by which it would assist in prevention and treatment of COVID-19 disease. Studies to date also do not support it except for the one ill-designed study with no controls. No postive results have yet been replicable.

    You need a prescription to get it. No reputable doctor will prescribe it unless it is indicated and no reputable pharmacist will dispense it without a prescription.

    Classic Radio Stories, your understanding of evidence is bizarre. According to you, the fact that there are no approvals for treatments you advocate without evidence, is evidence of a campaign of treatment denial. This is paranoid ideation at the least and of delusional paranoia at the worst. However, for you to be subjected to further arguments, even logical arguments, rather than treatment is actually cruel, so I will desist.

  23. Don;’t play the slippery Eel with me you bullshit artist. Lets have your evidence that HCQ doesn’t work? Or high dose IV vitamin C. Or for preparation; High Vitamin D serum levels. GO!!!!!!

    You have nothing and I can predict with 100% future-proof accuracy that you won’t come up with anything, not by way of having any access to the gifts of second sight. But simply because I’ve researched this matter, you haven’t and you are taking the faith-based approach.

  24. “800 mg salt (620 mg base) orally as an initial dose, followed by 400 mg salt (310 mg base) at 6, 24, and 48 hours after the initial dose
    Total dose: 2000 mg salt (1550 mg base)”

    There you go. By your own admission thats four times the typical Sars-2 protocol, which is typically only 200mg three times a day. So where is the safety issue for the radically lower dose? More evidence for a murderous campaign of treatment denial flowing from your own fingertips.

    And you even admit that the authorities are refusing to indicate HCQ for treatment. Thats treatment denial. And you further even admit that many doctors won’t write the prescription if the drug isn’t explicitly indicated from the central racketeers.

  25. When I put in a link my post often gets delayed. But the following 2005 study should come up if those maoris at google aren’t blocking it. It comes up in pub med for duckduckgo readily enough.

    “Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread….”

    The terrorist program consisted of forcing people to forget everything they knew about corona viruses and HCQ, prior to the terrorist attack. But many doctors remembered these things and they are having great success. And you were able to quickly find out that recommended doses for conrona virus are exquisitely safe since they are one quarter of the standard first dose for malaria. Its this type of knowledge that had to be covered up.

    As a consequence you can still get HCQ at your local pharmacy so long as you are not gasping for air and don’t need it urgently. So if you pretend to have rheumatoid arthritis then HCQ is safe. But if you need it because you can barely breath then HCQ is dangerous and this ludicrous situation has been brought about by the terrorists.

  26. Let me recommend you too Dr. Vladimir Zelenko who has had great success with HCQ as part of the armoury.

    I’ve decided to use this rabbinical doctor because if I use another doctor his or her religion may be attacked and that may be seen as evidence against HCQ. Recently a black African female Christian doctor, that no-one had heard about before, got given the racist ABC treatment by those two idiots on fireside chat. These two cretins, being neither doctors nor Christians, thought they were in a position to dictate both medical reality and Christian theology to this doctor. Whom I emphasise no-one had heard about before.

  27. But the following 2005 study should come up if those maoris at google aren’t blocking it.

    Maoris?!? That’s something new, I think.

  28. Zulus you think? Ashanti?

    We are into this crisis many months. And yet a doctor who does not wish to take risks is forced to tell their patients in effect: “Go home and rest until you need a ventilator.”

    Thats not a smoking gun for a campaign of treatment denial. Thats the crime right there laid bare. I can get medication right away for an ear-ache. Seldom do you go to the doctor without getting a prescription. Sars-2 is the stand out illness, where treatment is ruthlessly denied.

  29. Ikonoclast said this;
    Ikonoclast says:
    AUGUST 6, 2020 AT 7:56 AM
    I agree that the entire privatized superannuation investment industry for average workers is a con. Workers would do better with a national superannuation scheme run by the national government, which the workers and government each pay into and which would give a defined percent of retirement income for retired life. Simple, effective, equitable and no need for private financial advisers taking fees. If people want to go beyond that AND have the extra income to go beyond that then they may join a private fund as well.

    When I mistyped “private” just then, my spell checker was advising me “pirate”. It is one heck of a smart spell checker! 😉

    This is what I say;
    As little as two years ago I would have fully agreed with what Ikonoclast wrote. Now I have to QUESTION the validity of private pensions. It is my undestanding that once upon a time people thought that saving ones money was good not only for the individual it was also good for the society.
    Is that really true? That it is not true is something that both Milton Freidmann and Bill Mitchell would agree on.
    I can not provide a line link but I clearly remember Milton Friedmann writing that there is no such thing as an optimal rate savings for an economy. IIRC the reason for this is that no matter what the national rate of savings is there are pros and cons to that rate of savings and disriminating between those pros and cons is nothing more than a manner of taste.
    Then we can consider this question from an MMT perspective as well. Why should a national economy that is not on a gold standard or some other standard care how much money people save? There is no rational reason for the government to allow a situation in which there is a shortage of money until such time as there is a shortage of resources. But saving by private individuals is not likely to result in saving resources. It may do so initially but when one considers why people usually save money it is to buy an even bigger house or bigger car than they already have. Or to take a vacation at a destination further away than one ever has before.
    The bottom line is that there is nothing virtuous about saving money. When Milton Friedmann and Bill Mitchell reach the same conclusion thunder rumbles across the landscape.
    What about saving money for a rainy day. Well yes that seems reasonable from a individual point of view. But if everyone saves their money for a rainy day and that day arrives for everyone, like when crops would fail both in China and the midwestern states of the USA in the same year, everyone will be using their rainy day fund to buy food to avoid starvation resulting in the purchasing power of that rainy day fund being rapidly inflated away.
    Wouldn’t a nationaly administered rainy day insurace program be a more sensible way to manage the risks of disasters? Well actually no, unless it was run by someone with proper training and decent ethical standars. It looks to me that in this simulation such qualities in human beings are hard to find.

    Does the word “like” go somewhere in this comment? Does the “word” like go somewhere in this comment? What about a heart or a Hart?

  30. The characteristics of science denialism and related disordered thinking are quite interesting.

    https://theconversation.com/the-thinking-error-at-the-root-of-science-denial-96099

    One can certainly note how an entire field of empirical evidence from research is discounted by a denialist who instead accepts one or a few dissenting claims from persons with poor, dubious or no qualifications in the field. Competencies held by those trained in a scientific discipline and the corroborated, reproducible evidence delivered by them are actually adduced by the denialist as further evidence of a conspiracy, though the reasons and motivations for such a conspiracy are seldom elucidated logically. One or a few dissenting opinions without evidence, but which suit the prejudices and paranoias of the denialst, become proof of their theory.

    Evidence for the denialist-conspiracy theory and the claims for authoritativeness and trustworthiness of the alternative sources quoted are found in fact to be seriously wanting. Evidential studies are misunderstood. For example, promising preliminary results from a single ex-vitro experiment (cells in a petri dish essentially) are adduced by the denialist to prove that a treatment will work in-vitro. In real medical research there are many steps (and many real obstacles preventing further progress) from ex-vitro to in-vitro research and on to final approval of a proven safe and effective treatment. Denialist-conspiracists seldom recognize this and may well quote one paper on ex-vitro research on “species” A of pathogen as proof that drug X will work in live humans against a pathogen of “species” B in the clinical and/or outpatient setting. The number of unjustified leaps ignoring a series of empirical hurdles is high but the denialist-conspiracist assumes instant and automatic hurdling over all real obstacles.

    Equally, the dissenting “experts” usually quoted by denialist-conspiracists turn out, upon research, to have either no reputation or an inadequate or seriously tarnished reputation in the field in question and/or in other fields of profession or life. These dissenting “experts” tend to co-present with a suite of magical and religious beliefs which would stretch the credulity of any but those already possessed of strong occult, science-denialist and conspiracy beliefs. Denialism and scepticism of heavily corroborated science is often accompanied by extreme credulity towards the most outrageous occult and conspiracy beliefs. The inability to understand the disciplnes and methods of empirical research plays a a role in the inability to understand the difference between empirical evidence and knowledge on the one hand and motivated reasoning and magical beliefs on the other.

    I suspect that a study of denialist-conspiracism beliefs would uncover morphological and structural-analytical similarities to magical beliefs.

    “Similarity and contagion

    James George Frazer coined the term “sympathetic magic” in The Golden Bough (1889); Richard Andree, however, anticipated Frazer, writing of sympathy-enchantment (German: Sympathie-Zauber) in his 1878 Ethnographische Parallelen und Vergleiche. Frazer subcategorised sympathetic magic into two varieties: that relying on similarity, and that relying on contact or “contagion”:

    If we analyze the principles of thought on which magic is based, they will probably be found to resolve themselves into two: first, that like produces like, or that an effect resembles its cause; and, second, that things which have once been in contact with each other continue to act on each other at a distance after the physical contact has been severed. The former principle may be called the Law of Similarity, the latter the Law of Contact or Contagion. From the first of these principles, namely the Law of Similarity, the magician infers that he can produce any effect he desires merely by imitating it: from the second he infers that whatever he does to a material object will affect equally the person with whom the object was once in contact, whether it formed part of his body or not.[1]

    Imitation

    Imitation involves using effigies, fetishes or poppets to affect the environment of people, or occasionally people themselves. Voodoo dolls (Poppets) are an example of fetishes used in this way. Such as using a lock of hair on the doll creating a “link” known as a “taglock” between the doll and the person the hair came from so whatever happens to the doll will also happen on the person. ” – Wikipedia.

  31. No no its “The Conversation” that are the science denialists. Your science views are totally faith based. Your philosophical training is ruthlessly domain dependent.

  32. I read it. Its an entirely useless contribution by a person who is not a scientist. Who is not engaged even in a scientific profession. When was the last time this clown so much as made a brain scan?

  33. Well worth reading this article from the ABC Australia:

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-06/coronavirus-treatments-and-covid19-cure-research/12527034?nw=0

    The real science, even as shown by this “popular science” picture is clearly difficult, pain-staking and cautious and time-consuming. Testing is ongoing. But fools rush in with premature pronouncements and absolute certainty before the complex science is properly done. I guess primum non nocere (first, do no harm) means nothing to such untrained, non-medical people with absolutely no concept of the complexities of all the disciplines involved from cellular biology to medicine and medical research.

    I have semester passes in biology and cellular biology tucked away in my old resume. I never used those subjects professionally but along with other semester passes in chemistry and physics they do mean I know something about the hard sciences. I listen to the corroborated science in the field, not to discredited cranks and their mentally unbalanced boosters who misunderstand and misrepresent the science. I understand that early studies involving a zoonotic pathogen need much further work to uncover all the real complexities of disease progress and treatment.

    CSR, go to Catallaxy Files. You will be welcomed with open arms. Personally, I hope you get your hands on as much hydroxychloroquine as you want.

  34. But if you basic logic isn’t competent it hardly matters what qualifications you’ve gotten some time in ancient history. Once you take your faith-based approach its no longer a scientific discussion.

    Your link talks about the subject but ignores the idea of using HCQ early on. Instead they are championing an anti-inflammatory that they bring on when the patient is almost dead. So its a continuation of the ABC’s murderous campaign of treatment denial that we see everywhere. Even in the news shows.

    That link is also saying that there is no treatment. They talk about trials for treatment in the future as a stalling tactic and this is to deny treatment. This has been going on since January. But not in China. In China you can get treated early on now. Here you have to get substitutes in advance. And the Quercetin is usually and conveniently sold out. But you can get green tea extract and a few other things. Weak substitutes that almost no-one will prepare with.

    So your link is another example of ruthless treatment denial. It places all treatment into an imagined distant future whereas people are finding it hard to breathe right now.

  35. CSR,

    What medicinal, herbal and/or supplement preventions and treatments are they using in China?
    Where are the publications of randomized, controlled, double-blind studies with proven results?

    What is the rationale for “ruthless treatment denial” in the West? Cui bono? In English “to whom is it a benefit?”

  36. They use HCQ in China. They use science. In the West we only use the science of emptying the public purse and peoples wallets.

    The anti-inflammatory that your link is championing is next to useless. It simply makes the ventilator less lethal. Well you know. Golf clap and all that. But those who are lucky enough to find a doctor that is willing to defy the terrorist campaign of treatment denial, are very lucky indeed. Because when you take HCQ the breathing clears up in hours and not days. Its that fast if you take it early and with zinc.

    The standard life-saving protocol is HCQ with zinc and an anti-biotic. But the anti-biotic can be held in abeyance until a secondary bacterial infection becomes evident.

  37. “Where are the publications of randomized, controlled, double-blind studies with proven results?”

    Well there you go. Epistemology fail. This type of study is next to useless since you throw out all the information you knew in order to squeeze the remaining information into a statistical methods box.
    The proof is in the pudding. Name one useful innovation brought into being by this methodology? Skydiving perhaps? How about Viagra? Was its current usage discovered by this method?

    Not much of a philosopher dude. But you will find such studies if you look for them. Try Lancet, pub med, or google scholar. The studies are there. Useless as many of them are.

  38. We can take Viagra as an example. Once the old guys reported its effects no new useful information could be produced by the methodology you advocate as to the efficacy of the product. The old guy takes the Viagra and heads to his girlfriends place. What was found was found almost entirely on a case study basis. The bigger less useful statistical studies are just a formality.

    Same thing here and with roughly the same time response characteristics. The old guy takes the Viagra and after some time passes he notices something happening with his girlfriend. With HCQ you take it when you first get a sore throat and maybe you don’t have that sore throat come the morning. Or you take it when you are having trouble breathing and then your breathing clears up.

    Once you get a pattern of case studies of this nature and if you can identify the six stages of viral infection you need to deal with, then you can place the HCQ within your multi-pronged approach. Turns out its the joker in your pack. But still its only one part of what you need.

    To deep-six everything you know so as to be able to take a tiny bit of that information and polish it with statistics …. well I suppose you have to complete the process. But the statistical part is not really that important. Its more important to save the people from dying, by not practicing ruthless treatment denial

  39. Look at John Doyle. Like all MMT guys he is taking the current banking scam for granted, but at the same time imagining a money printing policy that we could only have if we were willing to change the rules. So John says without debt there is no money. Which is ridiculous. You could create cash and then stop being putting debt on top of it.

    Mosler is a real Pied Piper. He’s confused all the kids, and now they don’t know where they are going.

  40. CRS,

    Re: Alleged use of HCQ and Zinc treatments in China.

    (1)Where are the peer reviewed publications of case results including side effects, iatrogenic complications and deaths (which in full do require statistical studies)?

    (2) Where is your evidence for and explanation of reasons for “ruthless treatment denial” in the West? Cui bono? In English “to whom is it a benefit?”

    These are questions you still don’t answer because you can’t.

    So far, nothing but unsupported claims have come from you. All your “evidence”, when tracked down, comes from quack. conspiracy and alt-right sites. There is nothing from scientific or medical sites except the odd quote of a paper which you have misunderstood the significance of and misinterpreted.

    (3) Also how do you answer each and every one of the objections to HCQ efficacy in the following?

    https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/07/23/why-hydroxychloroquine-and-chloroquine-dont-block-sars-cov-2-infection-of-human-lung-cells/

    Summing up.

    Answer with extensive specifics on each and every one of the above questions. Questions are those sentences which end with a “?” symbol, just in case you are not sure. You are making extraordinary claims. “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,” as per Sagan.

    Support you extraordinary claims with extraordinary, detailed and scientifically verifiable and/or reputable information from reliable sources. Note, crank and conspiracy sites are not reliable evidentially. Answer the questions properly and in full and stop filibustering. I will take the next failure to answer completely, comprehensively and provide definitive and extensive evidence (after the several failures to do so thus far) as a final admission of your complete lack of real knowledge on the topic.

  41. Snopes? Snopes!!!!!!!! A site that specialises in misdirection. And you were posing as a philosophy adept. Face it. You are a moron.

    Find those studies. What is the matter with you? Do you have your google arm broken in three places? I already gave you the title for the 2005 report. The one where HCQ was one key to treating Sars-1. Most of the first flush of studies in the West were designed to fail. So more evidence that they were part of the ruthless terrorist treatment denial program.

    I’ll mention the study again. But you won’t read it because you are a faith-based idiot:

    “Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread…”

    “Results: We report, however, that chloroquine has strong antiviral effects on SARS-CoV infection of primate cells. These inhibitory effects are observed when the cells are treated with the drug either before or after exposure to the virus, suggesting both prophylactic and therapeutic advantage. In addition to the well-known functions of chloroquine such as elevations of endosomal pH, the drug appears to interfere with terminal glycosylation of the cellular receptor, angiotensin-converting enzyme 2. This may negatively influence the virus-receptor binding and abrogate the infection, with further ramifications by the elevation of vesicular pH, resulting in the inhibition of infection and spread of SARS CoV at clinically admissible concentrations.

    Conclusion: Chloroquine is effective in preventing the spread of SARS CoV in cell culture. Favourable inhibition of virus spread was observed when the cells were either treated with chloroquine prior to or after SARS CoV infection. In addition, the indirect immunofluorescence assay described herein represents a simple and rapid method for screening SARS-CoV antiviral compounds.”

    So the terrorists knew that they had to neutralise this treatment prior to the terrorist attack. Or else the disease would be greeted with a bit of a yawn. Still pretty serious. But not that devastating. Many factories changed hands. Israel stockpiled the drug. Then for the first time in 70 years the medical profession decided they didn’t know how to figure out the right dose for the individual patient. But only for this emergency. Not for any other ailment. Thats all fine. In the old days if you find your eyes feeling funny, or get anxiety or get pain in your lower back you might cut the dosage in half. But since the start of the year the medical profession is pretending to have lost the experience of the last 70 years…… but only for the one ailment.

    Now did you check out the doctor I mentioned? What is the point of me doing your googling if you won’t follow up what I place in front of you?

  42. “Support you extraordinary claims with extraordinary, detailed and scientifically verifiable and/or reputable information from reliable sources.”

    Oh no. You’ve accepted the epistemology of Carl Sagan. You cannot get more handicapped then that.
    And look at those circular reasoning weasel words: ……. reputable …. reliable …. Not verifiable but you’ve even turned that into the circular reasoning weasel phrase “scientifically verifiable” by which you mean some crap statistical methods jive where you had to throw away the case study information.

    No wonder you are so retarded. Your methodology is wrong from the start.

  43. Thats pretty interesting going from Snopes. They reckon they’ve proved the HCQ works for the green monkey but not for the humans. Maybe they can bullshit you that viagra is the same. They can pump green monkeys full of viagra.

    Snopes. Good lord you are a moron.

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